BlackBerry, Skype, Gmail and now 3G come under the scanner of Indian Government

[sgiitk 32]

If a shutdown takes effect, BlackBerry users in India would only be able to use the devices for phone calls and Internet browsing. (Arun)

I thought sms (not BB messenger) should also work, as it is not encrypted in any way.

As for 3G, Google, Skpte, etc. I thought we lived in a free society with some rights, or is it Big Brother of 1984 fame we are headed for.Maybe they are worried that they cannot eavesdrop on their political adversaries.

Edited August 13, 2010 by sgiitk

[abhi.r 95]

I think govt will stop only BB messenger.

Voice/sms/E-mails will be continued as I read somewhere that RIM had the solution for mails but not messenger.

[raju_a 31]

If a shutdown takes effect, BlackBerry users in India would only be able to use the devices for phone calls and Internet browsing. (Arun)

I thought sms (not BB messenger) should also work, as it is not encrypted in any way.

As for 3G, Google, Skpte, etc. I thought we lived in a free society with some rights, or is it Big Brother of 1984 fame we are headed for.Maybe they are worried that they cannot eavesdrop on their political adversaries.

I too feel Nations security comes first to anything. So i see no harm in the govt asking for monitoring the services.

[KanagaDeepan 1,084]

But why RIM is flexible to arabs and NOT to we Indians..??

[Arun 795]

Government wants BlackBerry server installed in India

Press Trust of India - August 22, 2010

The government has conveyed to the BlackBerry makers to install its server in India for tracking its messenger and enterprise mail service as the offer made by the company to provide data from its Canada-based server could be detrimental to national security.

Officials of BlackBerry maker RIM (Research In Motion) had offered to provide information on a deferred basis after it faced the threat of a shutdown of the core features by August 31 if security agencies cannot gain access to heavily encrypted corporate email sent on a Blackberry handset.

RIM had provided an option to the security agencies and officials of the Home Ministry that they could hand over the details of BlackBerry phones needed to be monitored and the firm in turn will decrypt the BlackBerry Messenger (BBM) and BlackBerry Enterprise mail Service (BES) of the smart phones in question, sources in the Telecom Ministry said.

RIM officials were ready to provide the information initially manually and later through a non-human interface using the “cloud computing environment” method under which a separate wall created in the server and code and pass-code is handed over to the overall coordinator, in this case India, the sources said.

However, the proposal was rejected prima facie as security agencies claimed that handing over telephone numbers for monitoring was fraught with the danger of exposing the source to an outside company and thus can be detrimental to country’s security, the sources said.

Even the automated system of extracting information from Canada-based server was not free of danger because the information could be hacked midway, the sources said.

The sources said that RIM officials were conveyed in no uncertain terms that they should deploy their interception server in India with the Indian Service Provider having a definitive tracking system.

Taking serious exception to BlackBerry’s inability to provide a solution to BES, the Home Ministry again wrote to the Telecom Ministry that if the RIM officials in collaboration with the service providers do not come up with a solution to BES, the service should be stopped immediately.

The BES is a technology of the BlackBerry where by a close user group within a few individuals is created and no mails sent from their smart phones to each other can be intercepted, the sources said.

Earlier the BlackBerry, which has over one million connections in India, had come up with a proposal of under which a mobile number that needed to be monitored would to be handed over to the RIM who in turn will provide the information within a maximum of 10 days.

However, the security agencies insisted on real time information rather than a deferred one in the interest of national security.

The BlackBerry makers are racing against time to meet the August 31 deadline set by the government earlier this month to provide a solution for intercepting the BBM and BES or see the prospect of the mobile phone’s popular services being shut down in the country.

The government is firm that any proposal of RIM would be accepted only after security agencies are satisfied with the technology of interception.

[kesav 127]

A very good move by MHA.

There can not be even a 1% compromise on security.

Monitoring should be hard real time and flexible(to add & delete the currently tapped devices on real time basis).

Only security agencies should make the final call on whether solution provided is satisfactory or not.

[KanagaDeepan 1,084]

With huge money got by RIM due to its BIS and BES services from us, launching new Server in India may NOT be a big task for them, imho...

[raccoon 53]

If a shutdown takes effect, BlackBerry users in India would only be able to use the devices for phone calls and Internet browsing. (Arun)

I thought sms (not BB messenger) should also work, as it is not encrypted in any way.

As for 3G, Google, Skpte, etc. I thought we lived in a free society with some rights, or is it Big Brother of 1984 fame we are headed for.Maybe they are worried that they cannot eavesdrop on their political adversaries.

I too feel Nations security comes first to anything. So i see no harm in the govt asking for monitoring the services.

Now isn't that exactly what the govt. would luv to have us all believe? Congrats... you would be like the ideal citizen (according to them).

The govt. is by far the biggest terrorist; albeit in disguise. But disguises work damn well in this world, it seems....

[KanagaDeepan 1,084]

Raccoon Bhai... Privacy is almost non-existent in this www era... Google knows more about us than our next door neighbor.. Thatz another story for another day..

But Bhai please think about the security issues too.. Earlier there was some voices from established phone-makers against ChinesePhones' lack of IMEI.. Our Govt was lazy about doing anything @ first and after the terrorist attack (after so many deaths) only the Govt woke up.. Now the Govt is taking steps for first time, b4 any death happened.. We have to appreciate them (pun intended)..

Raccoon Bhai, I can understand your feeling.. I too agree that, our beloved Govt has acted so BAD/Confusing earlier that we have to suspect even their good actions, like now..

But Sir.. Please tell, whether these terrorists can't use blackberry IM services?? or BES services?? With so many MONEY getting poured into them, they can spend any much amount for creating problems WITHOUT AN IDENTITY..

Further what is wrong if BY ACCIDENT, some business people's emails are scanned by Govt??? Yes, that may be a big problem for some, but NOT AS BIG AS risking country's security, imho...

And another thing, NOT ONLY Indian Govt is asking BB reg security issues.. Few others like Arabs, Indonesia are also asking.. So why stop our Govt???

Edited August 24, 2010 by KanagaDeepan

[ami1 237]

^

Do you think this this will stop terrorism ? Do you think this will even have a minuscule effect on them ? Not even 1%.

Then what is the benefit ? If not just more corruption sources by troubling innocent citizens.

People who are using illegal weapons and murdering citizens in cold blood are already in for the highest punishment, so stealing a few phones to make calls to their HQ will not deter them at all. And they can use their own encryption etc or just code words for their mails etc.

This has zero impact on terrorists. Just like the earlier mandate in mumbai that no one should have unencrypted wifi (just because someone claimed credit for a bomb through such wifi) OR asking for ID in cyber cafes. Maybe now they'll want ID for PCO calls and buying/drinking water (since terrorists definitely must be drinking water !)

We are all for more security but not mindless 'security theatre'. There are enough laws that everything that terrorists do is already illegal. So implement those laws rather than waste time on such things by fooling gullible citizens in the guise of terrorism etc.

Its the height of stupidity to think that banning a blackberry service is going to impact the terrorists ! Imagine one of them refusing to bomb someplace because his BB data is deactivated !

This is just like our office installed card readers on all doors after Mumbai terrorist attacks. As if they are looking to enter the office politely and will go back if doors don't open !

[KanagaDeepan 1,084]

SOURCE

Indian govt may extend BlackBerry deadline by two months

Research In Motion (RIM) may be given a 1-2 month extension from the Indian government to find a solution giving Indian security agencies access to its corporate e-mail services, reports the Business Standard. The Department of Telecommunications (DoT) is expected to ask the government to extend the deadline as RIM needs time to provide real time access to its corporate e-mails, a senior official said. In a statement, RIM said it had offered to create an industry forum focused on supporting lawful access requirements of enforcement agencies, while preserving the information security needs of corporations and other organisations in India. RIM insists that the use of strong mobile encryption technology was not unique to the BlackBerry platform, and that any ban would be ineffective and counter-productive.

[raccoon 53]

Raccoon Bhai... Privacy is almost non-existent in this www era... Google knows more about us than our next door neighbor.. Thatz another story for another day..

But Bhai please think about the security issues too.. Earlier there was some voices from established phone-makers against ChinesePhones' lack of IMEI.. Our Govt was lazy about doing anything @ first and after the terrorist attack (after so many deaths) only the Govt woke up.. Now the Govt is taking steps for first time, b4 any death happened.. We have to appreciate them (pun intended)..

Raccoon Bhai, I can understand your feeling.. I too agree that, our beloved Govt has acted so BAD/Confusing earlier that we have to suspect even their good actions, like now..

But Sir.. Please tell, whether these terrorists can't use blackberry IM services?? or BES services?? With so many MONEY getting poured into them, they can spend any much amount for creating problems WITHOUT AN IDENTITY..

Further what is wrong if BY ACCIDENT, some business people's emails are scanned by Govt??? Yes, that may be a big problem for some, but NOT AS BIG AS risking country's security, imho...

And another thing, NOT ONLY Indian Govt is asking BB reg security issues.. Few others like Arabs, Indonesia are also asking.. So why stop our Govt???

Sorry, don't know how I missed this thread after posting. Anyway, ami1 has answered it very well. If you ask me, the risk of allowing the govt. such free access to confidential data is not any less risky than the risk that terrorists may use this mode for their activities.

Besides, this particular issue is just hilarious. With all this publicity do you think terrorists will ever use BB for their correspondence? There are way better ways. Just imagine how easy it can be to communicate - for eg. all terrorists in a group can open a web based email account. They can make the password known to all between them. Then henceforth all they need to do is to write an email and save it as a draft instead of actually sending it. All others can then read this message and even save more drafts. No actual mails will be exchanged. Also how difficult it is to use strong encryption and send a mail on your own? Further, code language can be used. I can go on but i hope I have made the point. People who are ready to die will find a way to do things...

All this drama under the pretext of security is far more likely to be used for completely different purposes. It is really unfortunate that most do not even realize the danger of such moves and think they are doing something very patriotic by supporting the government. Things are never as simple as they are made out to be in public announcements.

Edited August 30, 2010 by raccoon

[Arun 795]

BlackBerry blinks, avoids ban by offering server, full access

BS Reporters / New Delhi August 31, 2010, 0:22 IST

The country’s 1.2-million BlackBerry users — and those waiting to buy one — will heave a sigh of relief as Research in Motion (RIM), the maker of the smart phone, today dodged a ban in India by offering to set up a server in the country and immediately offer full data access to security agencies.

The offer came in the nick of time, a day before the home ministry’s deadline for RIM to either give full access to its enterprise emails and messenger services or face a ban. It also coincides with an offer by rival Nokia, whose push-mail service has been under the scanner, to set up a server in the country in an apparent bid to lure corporate users as uncertainty loomed over BlackBerry.

Once installed, this will be only the third server outside RIM’s home country, Canada. Senior home ministry officials believe that RIM has servers in China and the US, but the company has so far denied these suspicions. RIM has a total subscriber base of 41 million worldwide.

“RIM has made certain proposals for lawful access by law enforcement agencies and these would be operationalised immediately,” the home ministry said in a statement. “The feasibility of the solutions offered would be assessed thereafter.”

The review will be in 60 days, after the department of telecommunications submits a report on the solution. Today’s decision was taken in an internal meeting headed by Home Secretary GK Pillai, along with officials of the Intelligence Bureau, National Technical Research Organisation and representatives of the country’s internal security apparatus.

RIM uses powerful codes to encrypt email messages as they travel between a BlackBerry device and a computer known as a BlackBerry Enterprise Server, which is designed to secure these emails. The home ministry has made it clear that any communication through telecom networks should be accessible to law enforcement agencies.

DoT had instructed telecom service providers to ensure that a technical solution for interception and monitoring of BlackBerry services in readable format was made available to law enforcing agencies by the August 31 deadline.

Similar security concerns were also raised in Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates (UAE). The Saudi Arabian government has already allowed BlackBerry messenger services to continue, following the resolution of some of its regulatory requirements. However, the UAE has set a deadline of October 11 to ban BlackBerry's messenger, email and web browsing services.

[kesav 127]

Although the news is good but I would have welcomed the immediate ban.

When Govt. can stop all the chinese telecom equipments import for security reasons without even talking to them for solutions, why they can't stop this miniscule and non-mass services like BES for security reason?

Why Govt. provide RIM one more chance?

Is it because RIM from west?

Come on guys, we've got freedom 60 years back. Shake away "west is best" mentality.

For sure, they'll come back with another story for not providing live access on the eve of another 60 days?

It's really perplexing to understand the reason behind this partiality?

Govt. requirement is plain and simple.

Provide hard real time access to any traffic in non-encrypted form in the network. End of the story.

It's thing between telecom operators and application providers to come up with a solution.

Govt. has nothing to do in this matter.

Just imagine how easy it can be to communicate - for eg. all terrorists in a group can open a web based email account. They can make the password known to all between them. Then henceforth all they need to do is to write an email and save it as a draft instead of actually sending it. All others can then read this message and even save more drafts. No actual mails will be exchanged

No....Basic monitoring is on the traffic based on the targeted devices. To put it simply any traffic to and fro from your device is visible for security agent.

RIM(say Blackberry) is dragging its feet unnecessarily for too long and too far. It's time that it's slapped heavily on its face sooner than later. It'll be a lesson for all western companies who are trying to influence Indian Govt. decision through their govts. and their trade lobbies.

Saying security keys are not with them is a shame. Everybody who is aware of the encryption knows public key and private key are generated simultaneously by key issuing agencies and hence they should be having it.

Govt. is the final authority in any society. There can be certain legal things which can be accessible only by certain legal persons in Govt but there cannot be anything legal which cannot be accessed by none in the Govt.

[ami1 237]

^

1. Private keys are never with any agency. Otherwise they wouldn't be called 'private' ! You are confusing 'certificate' with 'key'. Pvt/Pub keys are generated together and only public key is sent to an agency or the other party. Read PKI on google/wikipedia etc.

Even if BB servers are located in india the pvt keys are still on BB handset only. And many cos run own bes servers anyway.

2. It is not about eastern - western or british rule etc. or indian submitting to any western country/company. That has no bearing on this.

Even if Govt bans BB, there is no slap on RIM's face. They just have less profits. But Indians will not be able to use a good service.

3. Countless number of encrypted channels are available to every one anywhere.

If the interception is lawful ie granted by a court or legislation/law then there is no issue - either service provider will give the communication to you or you can arrest the communicating parties and ask them. Getting automated and easy wire tapping mechanism is only for 'fishing' ie just trying out randomly if someone is doing something wrong - ie warantless tapping - no court order/warrant/record/oversight or even suspicion - just tap whoever you want to see if you can find something. (That's why RIM keeps repeating 'Lawful Interception' - they can't say more due to obvious reasons)

4. All this energy should be spent in the actual task of policing rather than foolish things like on wifi and bb messenger/bes etc. But since policing requires actual effort and has risks, babus prefer to do these useless things. Even when IB had clear info on Mumbai blasts 1 week earlier than the event, our government could not do anything.

This is the same mentality which was earlier not allowing mobile service at all in J&K and then did not want prepaid and then banned SMS etc. None of that will ever have any effect on the situation which has a different cause and needs a different solution. It is not like before BBs or cellphones there was less crime ! This is just to divert citizens minds from the real issues.

Frankly, I am amazed and a little saddened by how easily people believe such propoganda and start supporting the govt on the wrong issues.

Why don't we mandate that all couriers/letters should be read by a Govt Dept. And Ban all cellphones altogether. And Internet.... And Carrier Pigeons !

You must understand that the end result of such things is always that all possible misuse of power will always happen. And the government will selectively pick on anyone they want to silence for speaking out against the government because given enough monitoring everyone has broken some rule or the other. But those who submit to govt or pay off, will not be prosecuted

Just my thoughts. Maybe I am completely wrong, since most people seem to support this.

Let's hope the Govt is able to get its way and that many terrorists are caught through BBs in the next 1 year and we save some lives and losses.

Edited August 31, 2010 by ami1

[raccoon 53]

+1,000,000 to that!

We live in sad and dangerous times when the sheep themselves are saying we cannot live without being herded and we want to believe everything that the half-wit shepherd tells us before the butchering.

One more blow to individual privacy; and we are actually applauding...

Edited August 31, 2010 by raccoon

[kesav 127]

^

1. Private keys are never with any agency. Otherwise they wouldn't be called 'private' ! You are confusing 'certificate' with 'key'. Pvt/Pub keys are generated together and only public key is sent to an agency or the other party. Read PKI on google/wikipedia etc.

Even if BB servers are located in india the pvt keys are still on BB handset only. And many cos run own bes servers anyway.

..........

I plead again to differ....

Normally keys are generated by centralized agency(Certificate Authority).

Each key pair should be unique within CA's domain.

Private key is private to individual and the CA and not private only to the individual.

Public key is available freely for all online users.

"certificate" is just nothing but website's public key.

While discussing topic, I request you folks not be emotional but be little pragmatic.

Rome was not built in a day. No single step in the world would ever solve terrorism.

Each single step like this is like a brick in a security fort. There's no purpose in building a fort with cavities of convenience embedded all over.

Just think...as a lawful citizen, why it matters whether you're monitored or not as long as your message reaches destination.....

For legal corporates, why it matters if only Govt. can smell it and not by competitors?

Certainly BB matter doesn't require this much public space. Allow Govt. to do it job sincerely and silently.

[srk006 21]

----

Just think...as a lawful citizen, why it matters whether you're monitored or not as long as your message reaches destination.....

For legal corporates, why it matters if only Govt. can smell it and not by competitors?

Certainly BB matter doesn't require this much public space. Allow Govt. to do it job sincerely and silently.

well... with so much corruption in govt, how can one be so sure that data will not be used by a third party(like competitor as in your example)? All this security measures like monitoring BB, banning prepaid services are just an excuse from the govt. who is terribly failing to provide real security(in form of border/coastal security and internal police force)to its citizens.

Take the case of 26/11 attack. The failure was at providing timely action. No force at the site instantly. No proper weapons to conquer the terrorists.

I believe instead of spending energy and time on issues of BB, govt. should divert money to increase physical security infrastructure.

[raccoon 53]

Govt. and do its job "sincerely and silently"??? That really made my day.

The implications of what you say open not one but multiple pandora's box dude... if only you could see them. If only you could see that this security fort is but a jail.

And we ain't getting emotional one bit. Quite on the contrary, those who hype about patriotism and all that shebang are the ones who are emotionally driven.

Edited August 31, 2010 by raccoon

[sgiitk 32]

Has anyone considered two points:

1. The terrorist is hardly likely to be carrying a Blackberry, and that too on BES.

2. It is the security of BB that prompts the corporate honchos to use it for secure communication.

What is there to stop one from adding 128/256 bit encryption to the communications at either end.

As for Skype, Google etc. I have a feeling that the old story of trying to stop VoIP is the underlying reason.

[kesav 127]

Let us make our premise of dicussion clear.

1) Privacy in electronic era is just superstitious. Anything and everything can be recorded and relayed with minute sensors.

2) What Govt. is asking is what already your telecom operator/application provider can see? Nothing more......

If you can trust those money-minded corporates(Verisign, Airtel, RIM, Google et.,), you can easily trust our Govt.

3) Security needs are becoming paramount. Terrorists are becoming tech-savvy.

4) Key communication equipments and its control(read as software) are sourced from outside the country

With above premise, what Govt does is correct imho.

[KanagaDeepan 1,084]

Thanks Kesav Bhai... Those are the exact things in my mind Sir.. +1 to you..

Privacy was burried many years back because of our beloved technological advancements.. These are little pains we have to bear for enjoying the technology..

1. The terrorist is hardly likely to be carrying a Blackberry, and that too on BES.

Sir, can you remember those T@LIBANS used "Steganography" to pass information between them?? I agree that Terrorists are f0ols to kill people for useless reasons.. But THEY ARE NOT ILLITERATES or WITHOUT ANY TECHNICAL KNOWLEDGE...

If BB (BES Included) gives them a way to communicate within them without the knowledge of Govt., they will definitely go for it, imho..

[raccoon 53]

Yes, but they also use boats, vehicles, credit cards, ordinary mobile phones (many were found with the Bombay terrorists), dry fruits, etc, etc. Why don't we ban all that too?

It is true that privacy is very difficult in the tech. age. That is all the more need and reason that systems be in place to protect it! Systems, laws, etc., have to evolve with the need of the hour. Not only is this not happening, things are going in the reverse direction.

If privacy is not possible how many of us will be ready to share/make public your email, messengers, FB, Orkut, etc., etc?

Edited September 1, 2010 by raccoon

[kesav 127]

BlackBerry issue being periodically reviewed: A. Raja

Telecom Minister A. Raja on Tuesday said the issues concerning BlackBerry smartphones are being periodically reviewed and expressed hope that these would be resolved soon.

The Home Ministry has extended the time for Research in Motion (RIM) by two months. We are periodically reviewing it, Mr. Raja told reporters here on the sidelines of a FICCI event here.

The Centre had threatened to block some of RIMs services in the country following concerns that militants might be using Blackberry smartphones to plan attacks.

The Home Ministry had set a deadline of August 30 for RIM to provide access to Indian authorities for monitoring Blackberry services.

RIM got a 60-day reprieve from the government to continue services in the country on the condition that the Canadian firm would have to ultimately set up a local server in order for its full services to continue beyond November.

RIM provides corporate email and instant messaging services to about one million users in the country.

source :: http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/gadgets/article645805.ece

It's heartening to hear that DoT is reviewing this issue periodically.

Let us hope at least this time RIM will solve the issue instead of bringing out another fabricated story on why it was not able to do it.

Edited September 15, 2010 by kesav

[kesav 127]

DoT rejects BlackBerry’s email decoding solution

KOLKATA | DELHI: The BlackBerry security jinx is unlikely to be resolved soon. The telecom department has rejected the interception solution offered by Canada’s (RIM) for its secure corporate email service. What’s more is that it has spurned RIM’s technical solution for decoding all chat communication on the popular BlackBerry Messenger service, which contradicts the home ministry’s recent clean chit to the Canadian smartphone maker’s interception solution for its messaging service.

In an internal note, dated September 28, reviewed by ET, the telecom department’s security wing claims security agencies have been unable to intercept or monitor secure email communication made through the (BES) in readable format. “RIM maintains that it does not have the keys that can be offered to security agencies for converting secure corporate email into readable format,” said a senior DoT official with direct knowledge of the matter. The DoT internal note claims law enforcement agencies have failed to intercept chats on the BlackBerry Messenger platform, which runs counters to the home ministry’s recent position that it is satisfied with the interception solution offered by RIM.

The latest development comes at a time when the central government has directed all mobile phone companies to install legal interception gear that can monitor services on every BlackBerry handset. It’s a different matter that RIM has recently warned DoT secretary K Chandrasekhar that blocking its popular BlackBerry services will not end India’s security concerns but induce the legion of internet offenders to migrate to the innumerable alternate encryption solutions available online.

It also comes at a time when the Canadian smartphone maker edges closer to the October 31 deadline for handing over the encryption keys and codes of its corporate mail and messaging services to the Indian security establishment.

The stakes are indeed big for the Canadian smartphone maker, especially since India is one of its fastest growing markets. Super secure corporate email has been RIM’s USP, which has made the BlackBerry service an instant hit with high-flier executives.

Today, India has over a million BlackBerry users, although less than 4 lakh subscribe to corporate email and use BlackBerry Messenger. Be that as it may, the home ministry fears that terrorists can use BlackBerry email and messaging services to co-ordinate and plot attacks as information exchanges on these channels cannot be monitored. The crackdown on all communication services offered through channels that could not be intercepted began after 26/11 when security agencies learnt that Pakistani militants used mobile and satellite phones to co-ordinate the Mumbai terror strikes.

source :: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/news-by-industry/telecom/DoT-rejects-BlackBerrys-email-decoding-solution/articleshow/6661267.cms

I somehow expected this.

RIM from beginning is spending all its energy to fool Indian Govt. through Media, Canadian Govt, International trade lobbies and never spend any energy in solving the issue meaningfully.

It's time for the Govt. to put its foot down firmly.

Now ban on BES services looks imminent and inevitable.