Which Is Better - 3G or EVDO?

[kesav 127]

Infact I think after 2 years RIL Infotel will be a game changer...

Absolutely......

4G is the way to go for India.....

Any day Infotel can apply for USAL and get it.

3G is no way going to survive in India either in EVDO or HSDPA form.

Look at the current scenerio of both 3G technologies.

EVDO::

1) Till date no CDMA operator has been provided with extra spectrum for 3G(EVDO), they're using already over utilized 2G(CDMA 1x) spectrum for 3G(EVDO)

2) No spectrum available extra in 800 MHz band

3) TRAI is planing to refarm 800 MHz(take back) and allocate 1900 MHz for both 2G and 3G. Refarming is an activity which needs at least 1 year from now. It means no extra spectrum in CDMA for at least next 1 year

4) Major CDMA operators (read as Reliance & TATA) are torn between the dilemma of HSDPA and EVDO

5) Only advantage for EVDO lies in its ability for low cost and faster deployment and its conducive frequency band for village/town deployments

HSDPA::

1) The winners of HSDPA spectrum are all spectrum starved entities except for Reliance and TATA

2) TRAI is planing to refarm 900 MHz (take back) and hence those operators using 900 MHz (read as Airtel, Vodafone, Idea )need further spectrum to accommodate displaced subscribers

3) There is no clarity on further allocation of 2G spectrum

4) Most of the operators at the time of wining said they'll shift many voice subscribers to HSDPA band rather than using it for data

5) HSDPA in 2.1 GHz is absolutely not conducive for village/town deployment due its enormous cost and low rate of return

Just compare the above situation aginst the 4G spectrum

1) 20 MHz unpaired in 4G against just 10 MHz (2 * 5 MHz) paired in HSDPA speaks volume about the price catch which Infotel has won

2) 60 MHz of spectrum is available with the Govt in 2.5 GHz band which will be auctioned next fiscal for 4G

3) Rival technologies(LTE and WiMax) can co-exist in the same band

4) Coverage distance of 4G tower is quite large and very good for both urban/village deployments

5) India is quite right at the point of upcoming commercial deployments of 4G is several countries across the globe which means better scale of economy

6) 4G spectrum is in the hands of business behemoth(read as RIL) with largest cash reserve

Edited October 30, 2010 by kesav

[gaurangbhartia 19]

Technology wise CDMA can accomodate more subscribers in the same bandwidth which should translate to lower operating cost and hence cheaper rates. And as people have pointed out EVDO and HSDPA all have many flavors (read as revisions) .

Kesav has already mentioned some technical aspects of the Indian Scenario.

And I feel it is too pre-mature(read as too early) to discuss technology as such without knowing which ones will be launched in India & When.

Now coming to Indian scenario :

I think its too early to go for this debate this as well as :

a) 3G still hasnt been launched (Except BSNL/MTNL which I dont think people are very keen on using) at a large scale.

b ) We dont know what will be the rates and which circles we will be getting 3g and when, alongwith the actual(not theoretical max)download/upload speed that we will be getting.

I agree with sougata on the points that GSM is better in the sense that it is VERY easy to change handset and no programming is required. And, in general, the re-sale value of handsets is more. However, in CDMA, the high-end handsets can be found a bit cheaper than their GSM counterparts. This does not hold true for mid-range handsets or handsets purchased from Service Providers who sell these at a very high rate.Also, Earlier, in CDMA the call rates were much cheaper though now the difference has reduced to marginal for light users and somewhat significant for heavy users (specially the ones roaming).

I feel that the problems faced by the members of this forum are not due to the technology as such but due to the policies of service providers who might feel :

a) that selling handsets is more important and if they don't provide service to customers who don't use their handsets, the customers will buy their handsets.

b ) lack of technical feasibility and their mode of operating.

Further more, with MTS activating EVDO, it is a great sign and it brings hope to general CDMA users as once MNP is launched other companies (Tata & Reliance) will be FORCED to activate services as they cannot risk loosing customers.I think they have already invested a lot and it would be foolish to let it just die out.

Edited October 28, 2010 by gaurangbhartia

[ATHUL4R 3]

I think 3g is better than EVDO in terms of speed and coverage.

bcoz EVDO is limited to only some city circles, in kerala only trivandrum and Ernakulam has EVDO.

download speed of 3g is good.

any one know the upload speed, or can any one send me the 3g speed test report by pm.

[sgiitk 32]

I agree with Saurav in that the limited choice of CDMA handsets is a big pain. The increasingly restrictive policies vis a vis Imported sets as are available from many experts here are also a problem. I have a BB8330 (courtesy Hitesh) and my son an htc Hero (courtesy Saadikk). The company prices are prohibitive, and the choice very limited, and mostly of obsolete or obsolescent models. . As for the resale value,is not a big consideration. In two to three years, the resale value is under 25% of what you paid!

I am also an original DAPO customer (as is my son), and have been quite happy with Reliance service. The tariff does not bug me since unless I am on roaming, I do not even hit the Rs.399 base of my plan. Now next time round, with MNP my son and I may both 'vote our feet', and switch to GSM.

[kshah 452]

Since we all belong to data user. Group, which is minority amongst all cellular population. Even in gsm or total indian population penetration of internet is very very low. So congestion in cellular industry is not because of voice or data user but its because of inadequete deployment of infrastructure and hypothetical subscriber number due to life time active connections. All connections during initial introduction of life time validity are truly life time. New life time connections remain in data base for 6 months till they are stricken off from list. Free of throw away distribution of sim is adding to chaos further. Looking at subscriber density across geography congestion is not as severe as operators claims.

Now a days gsm is almost as efficient as cdma in terms of spectrum utilization. WCDMA is even more efficient.

[Mufaddal 678]

most people are getting it wrong here

None of operators , be it Reliance , MTS , TATA , has started giving evdo officially to any end user on any imported handsets

its just that some handsets have got it , which are gonna be sold here

This is different from what we are talking here , so dont say that MTS is giving evdo officially so other operators also should start .Some people over here already have and can get evdo even on Reliance on imported sets using their "contacts" , but thats a different case.

Right now none of cdma operators have a policy to give evdo on handsets obtained from other source , unless u have contacts at higher level

And thats understood also given the vulnerability of evdo cloning in simple ip , they have to come up with some security levels , otherwise if they start distributing evdo to masses then cloning of evdo will be 10000.......times more than that on 1X

This is one of reason why they chose to give evdo only through OMH sim channel which is very secure to cloning .

Understand the realm of how things work and then discuss , dont speculate on half information

[Mufaddal 678]

I agree with Saurav in that the limited choice of CDMA handsets is a big pain. The increasingly restrictive policies vis a vis Imported sets as are available from many experts here are also a problem. .

what restrictive policies u talking about ??

the support u get from sellers here is unmatched

people will go and pay 40000rs for official handsets with warranty , do u ever go and ask the compnay when u have doubts ?? do they answer your querries ?? so they troubleshoot you when u in trouble ???

no they dont

u get cheap sets from here at half the price , plus support at each and every step in mins of asking , still u say its problem

[HetalDP 947]

Compared to CDMA 3GSM will require 4 time more Tower.

[ananth001 21]

Reliance & Tata policy at present compares to the following scenario

Having nationwide Worldclass Expressways

Customer has a Ferrari and is willing to pay required Toll to use the expressway

But it's like insisting that you only drive Autorikshaws on the expressway

[gaurangbhartia 19]

most people are getting it wrong here

None of operators , be it Reliance , MTS , TATA , has started giving evdo officially to any end user on any imported handsets

its just that some handsets have got it , which are gonna be sold here

This is different from what we are talking here , so dont say that MTS is giving evdo officially so other operators also should start. Some people over here already have and can get evdo even on Reliance on imported sets using their "contacts" , but thats a different case.

Right now none of cdma operators have a policy to give evdo on handsets obtained from other source , unless u have contacts at higher level

And thats understood also given the vulnerability of evdo cloning in simple ip , they have to come up with some security levels , otherwise if they start distributing evdo to masses then cloning of evdo will be 10000.......times more than that on 1X

This is one of reason why they chose to give evdo only through OMH sim channel which is very secure to cloning .

Understand the realm of how things work and then discuss , dont speculate on half information

I never said that they are giving it officially ... I said that its a good sign that they have activated it on Saddik's mobile. I guess they also know that Saddik is into this business and expect that he will get this done on bulk. Therefore, they MIGHT be principally agreeing to activate it for him. Furthermore, if they are working with him for Hybrid prl as mentioned in the other post, it is another sign that they want to sell their services desperately. (Unless they dont know Saddik is working on a hybrid prl and has told them that it is only for evdo.. )

Secondly, though there is a chance of cloning Ev-do, it cannot be cloned unless you know the HH & AAA shared secrets(ofcourse you know a way to know that on the activated handsets), which (I don't know why) they don't push directly into the handset through OTA. And even if you tell the customer directly through a secure channel, the customer will not risk cloning his own account since he will only be billed for it. Furthermore, there are advanced algorithms in HLR to detect and block cloning, so you cannot clone EVDO unless you are in home network and the 'clone' in on visiting network.Also, EV-DO can be linked to MSID and if you find more than 1 login from the same msid, it can be blocked.

I think that the problem here is that only a handful of customers are seeking this service and that is the reason they are ignoring it.

I might be wrong about the above,as I am not as technically sound as you are... please do correct me if I am wrong !

(And please don't be mad at me .. )

Edited October 29, 2010 by gaurangbhartia

[Mufaddal 678]

^^^

once again 50% correct and 50% incorrect facts

problem is most people ( and i dont blame anyone for that ) , get only 50% of picture , due to mis information or lack of information by operators and people alike , thats why speculation and blame game begins .....

anyways i dont want to go into details here of what i mean

bottomline is

evdo is always gonna be superior in terms of coverage and battery consumption , assuming u have carpet coverage

but i dont see any operator giving evdo officially to end user atleast for few months

the only way to get evdo is to buy handsets from people who have contacts with operators and are getting on few handsets

If u want hi speed internet for cheap investments , then for time been 3G is only hope , provided they come up by dec , otherwise just stay happy with 1X

Edited October 29, 2010 by Mufaddal

[kshah 452]

^ 3GSM, EVDO is 3G.

[sgiitk 32]

@Mufaddal: With due respects what I mean is that take a look at the sarkari list - very very poor, forget the pricing, and zilch support. The htc, and Android worlds are still missing on Reliance!

We get the same or better phones here at a fraction of the price with superb support (hand holding) thrown in for free. However, you do not get all the features to work on these. For example, both mine and my son's phones are capable of EVDO, we cannot activate it on Imports. I hear that configuring an Import for running on Tata is getting more and more difficult.

This was my point, nothing more. Correct me if I am wrong.

Edited October 29, 2010 by sgiitk

[Saurav 22]

I agree with Saurav in that the limited choice of CDMA handsets is a big pain. The increasingly restrictive policies vis a vis Imported sets as are available from many experts here are also a problem. .

what restrictive policies u talking about ??

the support u get from sellers here is unmatched

people will go and pay 40000rs for official handsets with warranty , do u ever go and ask the compnay when u have doubts ?? do they answer your querries ?? so they troubleshoot you when u in trouble ???

no they dont

u get cheap sets from here at half the price , plus support at each and every step in mins of asking , still u say its problem

Dear:

1. Handsets sold here are not for noble cause you can find Juke was sold for 3500, 4000, 4500, 5200 etc. It was not due to variation in Price of Handset or Change i Dollar conversion rate but something else.

2. It has been mentioned in some post people having Contacts with Reliance so spl only enjoy. Costly Data on RCDMA can not be ignored

3. Many people got refurnished Blackberry on name of New.

4. Its not possible for majority to gamble for 25K. Eg I had some problem in my X6 (16K) got it replace by Nokia. If I would have purchased from so called sellers I would have wasted 16K. So warranty is essesntial anything can happen.

5. I really appreciate sellers support on sale of new Handsets.

[sougatadc 358]

Compared to CDMA 3GSM will require 4 time more Tower.

With 2.5 times more subscribers in GSM than CDMA (Aug '10 figure), operators will afford to erect more towers.

[gaurangbhartia 19]

^^^

problem is most people ( and i dont blame anyone for that ) , get only 50% of picture , due to mis information or lack of information by operators and people alike , thats why speculation and blame game begins .....

Ofcourse most people know only 50% and its mostly because the info is not available on the internet... no matter how hard you try....

I tried downloading Data sheets from Qualcomm and CDMA authentication procedures and still wont wont have the required info properly... all contain big theories but not simple concise data that is required.

Off Topic :

Believe me I have tried searching for Each user field that is present in Qpst, but still have not found enough info to satisfy me. I am still searching for missing data ! You people know because it is your business or related to your business. And I am sure that the practical knowledge you gained came mostly from other people and not books.

And with reference to someone posting something about people making money out of the knowledge present here, I would like to say that

there are some people like me who are here only for interest sake. I never intend to make money by selling/programming handsets ! If I wanted to sell handsets, I'd rather try and affiliate myself with You or Saddik or other Gurus of the forum and concentrate on sales/expanding business rather than programming because by profession, I am into Accounts & Finance ! Lolz

Edited October 29, 2010 by gaurangbhartia

[Mufaddal 678]

^^^

you are wrong in saying that we know coz its related to business

cdma is not my business at all , its a timepass for me , and i do all out of interest

we invest more time and bear more losses learning all these things

just recently i bricked on epic , though phone was damaged beyond repair , but i did learn few things , that would help me revive next 100 epics

knowledge comes when u do for interest , when u start doing for money thats when leeching starts !!!

we all have learned ourselves searching through web page after web page for months and months , u want to learn everything in short span of time which is not possible

when i joined forum i was as noob as every other newbie who didnt even knew what hex and dec is , but see where i am today , its all through net and freinds i made on net

so take your time and read , study and understand ,and try thats how me , hetal , and kalpak know stuff

thats enough off topic reply

lets get back on topic to which is better

[jabir 5]

I think 3g is better than EVDO in terms of speed and coverage.

bcoz EVDO is limited to only some city circles, in kerala only trivandrum and Ernakulam has EVDO.

download speed of 3g is good.

any one know the upload speed, or can any one send me the 3g speed test report by pm.

No in Kerala I am getting evdo services in Trichur, Calicut, Palaghat, Kannur soon they are launching in Malppuram

[rajeshkatiyar 3]

I agree with Saurav in that the limited choice of CDMA handsets is a big pain. The increasingly restrictive policies vis a vis Imported sets as are available from many experts here are also a problem. I have a BB8330 (courtesy Hitesh) and my son an htc Hero (courtesy Saadikk). The company prices are prohibitive, and the choice very limited, and mostly of obsolete or obsolescent models. . As for the resale value,is not a big consideration. In two to three years, the resale value is under 25% of what you paid!

I am also an original DAPO customer (as is my son), and have been quite happy with Reliance service. The tariff does not bug me since unless I am on roaming, I do not even hit the Rs. 399 base of my plan. Now next time round, with MNP my son and I may both 'vote our feet', and switch to GSM.

Dr Saheb I do agree with you Although EVDO is better but it is being stragulated by service providers It will never reach to smaller cities forget towns

Even hard core CDMA supporters will switch to GSM data while roaming .The only hope is MTS if it could do something. By the way I am also planning to

leave TATA due to limited towers when portability comes@ Muffadal CDMA is a challenge like old Russia was to CIA, so it is attractive tell me if i am wrong

[vikasmahajanz 33]

in 3G its possible to recieve and make calls with internet/downloading running at backend whereas in evdo its not possible, in evdo if its set to hybrid then it pauses the internet and shifts ur incoming call to 1x.

[kesav 127]

I understand this issue but it'll be solved with VORA(Voice over Rev. A) update on EVDO Rev. A on the network side.

I feel operators will go for this update on the n/w side due to competition from HSDPA.

Unless VORA is applied, EVDO players cannot provide video calls.

I'm not sure whether EVDO Rev. A handsets should go for an update or not.

[rajanmehta 4,056]

I read with fascination how passionately Kesav defends EVDO with all this technical parameters. I too would have done the same earlier but not now.

All this is theory (not saying wrong theory) but fact of the matter is Reliance lost a golden opportunity to capture High Speed Data market for Mobiles despite having EVDO with it for as long as more than 2 year. It had everything, the subscriber base, nationwide network, one of the largest fibre connectivity in India, access to international data pipes. It just needed to seize the initiative, launch some good handsets at right prices, attractive data plans and it could have been a leader in high speed data market for mobiles without even paying those thousands of crores for 3G GSM spectrum. The first mover advantage would have been unassailable for GSM operators to get anywhere near to.

I read somewhere on RIMWEB that Reliance might not be launching EVDO for the fear of it being ripped, hacked by people for free data. While this may be true technically but if this is the reason then it is more shameful for Reliance not to be able to find a solution for security. Verizon runs America's largest CDMA network, provides EVDO and remember there is no OMH Sim Card handsets in America. So all CDMA handsets are programmed and all the more chances of it being hacked. Plus you have a huge no. of geeks in America for mobiles as compared to India. If EVDO security was such an issue, Verizon would have gone bankrupt by now. Actually it makes hell lot of money.

But now does one seriously think that many Reliance CDMA subscribers deprived of all this for years will still hold on to it by merely this technical comparisons of whether EVDO is superior to 3G GSM or not? I don't think so.MNP and 3G GSM launch in the next two months is going to be defining moment for Reliance CDMA as it will see all those premium high ARPU customers walking for greener pastures. One has to just look around RIMWEB how frustrated such subscribers are with Reliance. And RIMWEB with its some 45000 members is just a representative sample of the Reliance subscriber base. I know many people who are not members of RIMWEB but are equally frustated with it for Data and handsets. Thousands are seething in anger and frustration and i think Reliance is going to meet the same fate as BJP met in 2004 where it too started believing in that glossy "Shining India" campaign without understanding realities on the ground and was voted out by the silent majority.

I feel more sad for our heroes at RIMWEB who fought such a lonely battle with Reliance to see it reason and atleast provided us with good handsets.

Edited October 30, 2010 by rajanmehta

[kshah 452]

Lots and lots of High arpu customers who are not rimweb members are more prone to leave RCDMA as soon as MNP is implemented. In last few days I came across atleast 8 non rimwebians but RCDMA customer inquiring that wether I am going to leave rcom after mnp. They were and are not at all concerned with any technicalities. One of them is extensive bb user, paying 899 pm, who never browsed on his BB. This may be very small sample.

[kesav 127]

I'm not defending any technology here. Just making the members aware of the facts for making meaningful decision.

There's lot of unworthy hype about GSM-3G in the air which I feel should be measured against facts so that members will not fall prey.

EVDO provided by the CDMA players on mobiles till the date of allocation of GSM-3G spectrum(1st september 2010) was quasi-illegal. That's the main reason why CDMA players were not able to promote EVDO in handsets as you might have wanted.

My sincere request to anybody for that matter is please wait for sometime(say 2-3 months from now)to measure HSDPA performance and coverage against EVDO performance and coverage in India before passing any judgement.

If you want to shift because of voice service issue(either with coverage/customer relation/performance), please go-ahead immediately on MNP. If you want to shift for the word "3G" and data service, I request you to postpone it and make judgement after 3 months.

[rajanmehta 4,056]

I'm not defending any technology here. Just making the members aware of the facts for making meaningful decision.

When i say defending, i am saying it in praise of you for bringing out exact technical details of the technology, not in criticism. It is just that theory and practical considerations are vastly different in Indian Scenario.

EVDO provided by the CDMA players on mobiles till the date of allocation of GSM-3G spectrum(1st september 2010) was quasi-illegal. That's the main reason why CDMA players were not able to promote EVDO in handsets as you might have wanted.

After the 1999 new telecom policy, telecom licenses have been made technology neutral. EVDO is not at all quasi-illegal. What the 3G auctions for GSM did was to allocate additional spectrum. If any operator has a technology like CDMA which enables it to offer high speed data on mobile and if it is able to do so within the spectrum allocated to it, there is no bar against it in the license conditions. Reliance though capable of offering EVDO is not giving it by default on mobile handsets but doing so in netconnect data devices whereas Tata till date is offering EVDO on mobiles. Tata would be the last entity to do something illegal. And no goverment agency has asked them to terminate offering EVDO after GSM 3G auctions.

My sincere request to anybody for that matter is please wait for sometime(say 2-3 months from now)to measure HSDPA performance and coverage against EVDO performance and coverage in India before passing any judgement.

With the perspective of Reliance Customer, how can they evaluate EVDO V/s HSDPA when Reliance is not offering EVDO except on few OMH Sim Mobiles (Such handsets Not liked by premium ARPU Customers at all as the processors, browsers, features in such OMH handsets fall very short of their expectation and requirements) and that too not by default. One has to go through an agonizing fight with them for enabling EVDO from backend which they rarely do. And what about affordable EVDO Data plans? In absence of all this what does EVDO coverage mean to a Reliance subscriber. It is simply not there. And any comparison with HSDPA performance will be an exercise in futility in such circumstances at a practical level.