India Against Corruption - Parivartan

[raysmanindi 4]

The Politicians are b*****ds, they will find some other way to deal with Lokpal Bill. But i am happy that something positive is happening like a small revolution :clap: :clap:

[raccoon 53]

^

Raccoon this is why I mentioned I mean no offence and my post should be taken in that spirit of debate.

My point was simply against labeling everyone's participation in this initiative as "fashionable". You might very well turn out to be right in the end, might be after the euphoria dies down no progress will have been made but still, bluntly dismissing everyone's contribution to this movement, however minuscule it might be, seemed harsh to me.

I apologize if have offended you by my choice of words. Let us stop discussing on this because this will lead us no where. No hard feelings please.

Dude, no offence was taken to being with. Hence no apology needed.

I have not attempted to dismiss anyone's contribution to the corruption movement. Only an insight was attempted and attention drawn to other equally if not more important issues which we have just grown to be supremely tolerant about.

I agree, lets not discuss this further.

[KAPILKDEV 68]

signed

[commonman 228]

While the efforts are definitely in the right direction, the outcome of these are very doubtful.

Saw one female RJ of some pvt. FM channel ranting that she went to the passport office and had to pay at every place to get her passport. What she conveniently did not say was that she paid because she did not want to stand in the queue, did not want to wait for the stipulated dates, did not want to wait for the police verification process etc.

Every time someone breaks a traffic rule, they are more ready to offer money to the traffic police than accept the challan and follow the due process of law.

The very same youth who are jumping up and down at various public places in support of Anna would very quickly be willing to pay under the table to get into the IIM or get a high paying job.

Same thing is happening everywhere. Corruption has reached the genetic level of this country, particularly the so called middle class.

Will lokpal bill make it an offence to offer bribe or to entice someone with money? don't think so. Unless there are provisions to punish those who offer money, as long as there is even one Indian who is willing to jump the queue or not accept a traffic challan, and is also willing to pay for it, corruption would prevail. Anna or no Anna.

Edited April 12, 2011 by commonman

[raccoon 53]

+ 1000

[dkaile 1,051]

^^

While the efforts are definitely in the right direction, the outcome of these are very doubtful.

Saw one female RJ of some pvt. FM channel ranting that she went to the passport office and had to pay at every place to get her passport. What she conveniently did not say was that she paid because she did not want to stand in the queue, did not want to wait for the stipulated dates, did not want to wait for the police verification process etc.

Every time someone breaks a traffic rule, they are more ready to offer money to the traffic police than accept the challan and follow the due process of law.

The very same youth who are jumping up and down at various public places in support of Anna would very quickly be willing to pay under the table to get into the IIM or get a high paying job.

Same thing is happening everywhere. Corruption has reached the genetic level of this country, particularly the so called middle class.

Will lokpal bill make it an offence to offer bribe or to entice someone with money? don't think so. Unless there are provisions to punish those who offer money, as long as there is even one Indian who is willing to jump the queue or not accept a traffic challan, and is also willing to pay for it, corruption would prevail. Anna or no Anna.

This is the exact kind of attitude and apathy that is making corruption swell in our country. We just dont care. We are into victim psychosis where we are blaming ourselves for everything bad upon us. This is the exact excuse that a corrupt gives to himself that the corruptee in fact deserves the affliction he is bestowing upon him. Then why are there countries where corruption is next to nil? Its the government machinery in place which is preventing it, like in Singapore. The strict laws are a deterrent of the kind that human nature understands. Human Nature is the same whether in India or in Singapore - http://en.wikipedia....rceptions_Index . Corruption can be directly linked to population and the resources available in a country. But the fact remains that a pro-active government can curb it and stricter laws are the only way out in our country...

Edited April 12, 2011 by dkaile

[ACS 130]

^^^ With you on this one.. +1 for starting this Topic, putting an inspiring video on Hazare & the above rebuttal..

Was waiting for someone like @commonman to raise doubts / rubbish the sustainability of this idea..

Although, its not exactly a contrarian view, his is more like the practical, prevailing truth in India & thats what most ppl also identify with.

Among the 2 parties involved, Bribe givers & takers.. there are instances when either of them get the better of the other.

We are made to 'pay extra' while applying for virtually everything from Ration cards, Gas connections, Passports to registering vehicles/houses etc. just to get the work done smoothly.

However, in Govt tenders, 2G scams etc, it seems like the Bribe givers are more interested in gaining leverages over others.

But what happens majorly is black-money going in the pockets of Babus & netas who feed on this 'birth-right' & eventually get more greedy & dangerous..

@Commonman - there are various facets to a bribe giver, in doing what he does.. doesn't mean he is always wrong..

Yes, if others continue to jump Q's or bribe their way through with help of agents/touts, why shouldn't we?

BUT

* If the bribe wasn't accepted, our RJ friend had to stand in Q, conform to all checks & security clearances.. no compromise for a document like Passport is better.

* If bribes aren't accepted, we will have to part with the Rs. 100 instead of arguing with a Traffic pandu.. in-direclty, won't it bring in more discipline ?

* If bribes weren't accepted, why would we have to pay for School, College, B-School Donations & Jobs? Only merit admissions right ?

Many of us have just seen the basic side of corruption like the ones mentioned above, we haven't lost homes / fertile lands as in villages, due to 'development work'.

And yes, at the end of few months, even if a few ppl wow not to give bribes, the figure will only rise.. forget 1 person influencing the entire bunch otherwise.

Thats precisely why this movement has picked up so much force.. spontaneous reactions indeed all across the Country, not what Political parties & their goons do time & again destroying public property, on the pretext of - ' this was a spontaneous reaction from the public'.

Well honestly, at present, it all seems true in theory & its impossible to think of a 'clean India' anytime soon.. but thats where we can HOPE. Countries like Singapore have already landed there, making it the most Corruption & Crime Free state. And why Crime-free, any connection ? Because ppl cant collude with police & powerful netas, thereby getting away with rape & murder..

Time & again, all of us go to sleep with thoughts like - Kucch nahi so sakta iss desh ka, jo hai wo chalta rahega !

But this man, Anna Hazare has really shaken me up.. he has given hope & direction to my confusing thoughts on Corruption.

Hopefully, it stays that way for a long time........

Edited April 12, 2011 by ACS

[commonman 228]

@ACS

If every single person vows not to give any bribe to anyone and wait patiently, there would no longer be any corruption.

If every person vows to pay full tax on their earnings and on all business transactions, there would no longer be any corruption.

If every person willingly accept fines/punishment for breaking rules, there would no longer be any corruption.

If the laws of the Country are modified to remove all forms of reservation and make merit as the sole criteria for education, jobs etc, there would no longer be any corruption.

If every single adult Indian, more so the educated ones, exercised their electoral rights properly, there would no longer be any corruption.

If the Right To Information Act is extended to all NGOs, News channels etc, there would no longer be any corruption.

....................

Only if..........

[dkaile 1,051]

^

Utopia is a non existent dream.... we have to change the circumstances that we are in to irk out a best possible living for us all...

[ACS 130]

@ACS

If every single person vows not to give any bribe to anyone and wait patiently, there would no longer be any corruption.

If every person vows to pay full tax on their earnings and on all business transactions, there would no longer be any corruption.

If every person willingly accept fines/punishment for breaking rules, there would no longer be any corruption.

If the laws of the Country are modified to remove all forms of reservation and make merit as the sole criteria for education, jobs etc, there would no longer be any corruption.

If every single adult Indian, more so the educated ones, exercised their electoral rights properly, there would no longer be any corruption.

If the Right To Information Act is extended to all NGOs, News channels etc, there would no longer be any corruption.

....................

Only if..........

True.. Currently, almost every single person seems to be guilty of either receiving or paying bribes.. see the latest on Shanti Bhushan's property undervaluation / stamp duty issue !

But we're not talking about every person changing here.. were only hinting on some serious systemic changes which makes it extremely difficult for netas & babus to accept bribes.. even if the bribe giver wishes to pay.

Apart from the complex Lok pal bill, tell me how many Govt offices / Police stations have cameras installed.. something as simple as this, will make officials more vigilant & productive.

Private parties / Citizens will anyways continue bribing each other for personal reasons as they don't fall under the ambit of the Lok pal bill..

[rajanmehta 4,056]

[digitalnirvana 646]

If this open letter does not shame her, wonder what will.

[dkaile 1,051]

Y'day.. in Barkha Dutt show Swami Agnivesh given his stand on Bhushans.. states that when a TV Anchor of a reputed Channel have been accused of Corruption..and still continuing day to day interviews on Corruption.. then why Bhushans should not stay in the Committee..

Barkha Dutt was speechless and her face was red.. It was worth watching that slap to Barkha Dutt..

Should Barkha Dutt step down from Journalism?

[raccoon 53]

[rajanmehta 4,056]

Shekhar Gupta's "National Interest" Column in Today's Indian Express...

An Un-emotional, rational look at perils of going through in TOTALITY with the Civil Society Draft of Lok Janpal Bill without considering the issue in depth..

Must Read...

We, The Thieving People

Some questions can have only one answer. For example, is corruption a bloody awful thing? Are you sick and tired and outraged by recent scandals? Shouldn't the perpetrators of all these be thrown into jail? Is the process of catching such thieves in high positions too slow, too compromised and, actually, a joke? Does India need to set up a new, effective mechanism to not only catch and convict the corrupt but also to strike terror in the hearts of all those who may have felt tempted to steal? If the Jan Lokpal bill, drafted by well-meaning, sincere members of the civil society, provides that legal framework, should it be passed forthwith? The answer to all these will be a resounding, unanimous "YES". No question. No argument.

Now, let's pose some more questions: have you read the text of the proposed bill? The honest answer is most of you have not. Nor had I, until late last week. So here are some follow-up questions: in that fight against corruption are you willing to reshuffle the great constitutional arrangement of checks and balances, separation of powers and responsibilities within our institutions, Parliament, executive and the judiciary? Will you create an institution that's a cop-cum-prosecutor-cum-inquisitor-cum-judge at the same time, in a "na appeal, na vakil, na daleel" (the expression made famous during the Emergency) kind of arrangement? Do you want an institution that will override the judiciary and Parliament, have the magisterial powers of search and seizure and, as time passes, will pretty much appoint its own successors and be answerable to none, particularly as even the judges of the Supreme Court will quake in their robes before they hear complaints against the Lokpal as it would also have the powers to investigate complaints against them (there is a concession however: such investigations will not be carried out on behalf of the Lokpal by a police officer below the rank of a superintendent of police)? Finally, are you willing to appoint a General Musharraf in mufti to sort out all that bedevils India today? I can presume the answer to all these will be generally no, though there will be some quibbles over the interpretation of this and that. But please do read the text of the bill (available at www.indiaagainstcorruption.org) as we go on.

The Musharraf reference is brought in with great care. He tried to create a perfect system with a "democracy" that was "guided" by him, and his corps commanders, obviously men with "unimpeachable integrity" (a term you will read often in the Lokpal bill draft) and certainly unquestionable patriotism. It worked well for nine years, until he willy nilly got caught in putting his control over his judiciary to the test of public opinion and a Pakistan, even under military rule, revolted. It is tough to see how India, old or new, would ever accept so dictatorial an arrangement. The Musharraf reference is also tempting because the standard answer from this group of civil society leaders to the question if their bill violates the basic spirit of the Constitution is, so what, the Constitution can be amended as it has been so many times. But the kind, and number of Constitutional amendments this draft will require, will need a Musharraf. Remember how he unveiled his new constitution at a press conference, and carried out 36 amendments on the spot, on the suggestions of journalists who, I presume, fitted his definition of members of civil society.

Read along this draft with me. First of all, the composition of the 10-member Lokpal and its chief. Four will have to be former senior lawyers or judges, and no more than two former civil servants. Where will the rest come from? Your guess is as good as mine. All of these will have to be people of "unimpeachable integrity" and also "should have demonstrated their resolve to fight corruption in the past." From where will you find these people, particularly as you are working on the presumption that a large number of judges of the Supreme Court and high courts do not pass that test of unimpeachable integrity. And who will choose them? A committee headed by the prime minister who, in turn, will be under the jurisdiction of the Lokpal he chooses. But, wait, it is more complicated than that. This committee shall include the two youngest judges of our high courts and Supreme Court respectively, the presumption being that the young are cleaner (Clause 6, 5 c and d). But, if a Lokpal has to be fired for misdemeanour, the case will be heard by a bench consisting of the five seniormost judges of the Supreme Court? Confused? Why are the youngest virtuous while hiring, and the seniormost equally so while firing?

The first time, this selection committee will set up a search committee of 10, of which five shall be former CAGs and CECs but only if there has never been a "substantive" allegation of corruption against them, nor do they have any "strong" political affiliations. Who is to sit in judgment over such subjective criteria? But wait. This committee of five will then choose five members from the civil society. How civil society is defined we do not know, but in fairness, you should presume we journalists will not be among them. If this is not sounding impossible already, this search committee has to recommend at least "three times the names as there are vacancies" (Clause 6, 10 f). So if you thought it is hard enough to find so many perfect men and women, you now know that you have to find thrice as many. And, of course, when the selection committee's choice is finally forwarded to the president, she "shall" sign it within a month. This would make the Congress party blush, in particular, as the last time the president of the Republic was treated so peremptorily was during the Emergency. Remember Abu Abraham's immortal cartoon in this paper, showing Fakhruddin Ali Ahmed in his bathtub, handing out a signed ordinance through an ajar door, and saying, if there are more ordinances, can they wait till I finish?

If the bill tells the president what she "shall" do, it similarly directs the Supreme Court, five seniormost of whose judges will hear any complaints against the Lokpal and "shall not dismiss such petitions in liminae." And, of course, should they decide that the Lokpal is guilty, they will write to the president who "shall" fire him within a month.

If the idea of this bill is to take away all discretion, and strike terror in the hearts of the bad guys, it does that very effectively.

Except, so many of the rest, generally innocent Indians, may live in that terror as well. The bill, for example, entitles the Lokpal to collect 10 per cent of all the fines collected, stolen wealth recovered, or even national wealth saved from being stolen, in its own corpus for its own use, thereby creating extortionist incentive: the more you value, the more you collect. Read on further. If you report on another citizen and he is caught and convicted, you would similarly earn 10 per cent of the money recovered, and/ or the money saved from being swindled as your reward. We will, therefore, be incentivised by law to become a nation of cops and spies, sneaking on neighbours and family for pecuniary gain. Such things happen in North Korea and if it is your argument that its people are happier than us Indians, we will need some convincing. Of course, this may see so many Indians in jail that real estate companies, maybe even DB Realty and Unitech, may find it profitable to diversify into building new prisons all over the country. Further, almost all Lokpal proceedings, from selection committee meetings to trials, will be videorecorded and copies will be available for a fee. This will be a great stimulus for the video industry and if you had any spare cash you had better buy some Moserbaer stock.

The bill plays nicely on the current sab chor hain mood. So if a company is found to benefit from a corrupt practice, five times the loss it is supposed to have caused the public (it could have been 5 x 1.76 lakh crore in case of the telecom scam) will be recovered by auctioning not just its assets, but also the personal assets of its directors. You can go on, the Lokpal members will be deemed police officers, have the powers of seizure and search without going to a magistrate — precisely the question with Armed Forces (Special Powers) Act) — have protection of contempt of court law, will function as civil courts, be investigators and prosecutors, throwing out the very principle of separation of powers, checks and balances (Clauses 8-19, 21, 24, 25, 27, 32).

As we saw in the first five questions raised, and answered in the affirmative in this article, there is no doubt that all Indians are now desperately angry with corruption. But is the way to fight it to totally subvert our constitutional arrangement and create an institution with absolute, unchallenged and draconian powers? Or install a Kim Il Sung with his politburo? This bill, in this form, is designed to match the dictum of "absolute power corrupts absolutely." It also presumes all Indians are thieves, unless proven otherwise, and can only be governed in a police state. Further, that a society of a billion-plus thieves can be cleansed by barely a dozen individuals armed with the most undemocratic law drafted in a democracy outside its Parliament. That is why this needs greater, cooler discussion. Medha Patkar is right in saying that the antecedents of the civil society committee members are not the most important thing and that there should, instead, be a vigorous debate on all aspects of this bill. That is what we are trying to initiate in this paper.

[I_C_U 10]

The article is well..... good.

I had gone through the Jan Lokpal draft. It is indeed strong and impractical in some conditions.

But, I firmly believe that the course of action and flow of event in this matter is actually perfect.

Jan Lokpal bill is a proposed draft. It was never meant to be passed and implemented then and there on the floor of Jantar Mantar. The bill will be passed by the parliament and it is clear that government will make sure that such strong bill is never passed. Equally what we need to make sure is that the loose and loop-holed draft proposed by govt. should also not pass through.

Jan Lokpal is bargain draft. Its like bargaining for that pair of shoes on FS. I like the shoes, he will ask 750.00. I determine they are worth 325-350. But i will ask for 250 and thus finally get them for a balanced bargained price.

I read somewhere “The minute you settle for less than you deserve, you get even less than you settled for.”

By proposing a strong bill, it is ensured that even after dilution of 25-40% in the provision of the draft, the bill will do better than the govt draft.

[rajanmehta 4,056]

The Government is trying to kill the Jan Lokpal by refusing it any meaningful powers to investigate and prosecute corruption. Fortunately, a Government public comment process has just begun -- let's flood them with messages to show we're still watching, and urge them to save the Jan Lokpal.

Send A Message >> http://www.avaaz.org...95848768&v=9287

SOURCES

Government going back on its word: Kejriwal http://www.hindu.com...53164031500.htm

Govt invites feedback on Lokpal Bill http://timesofindia....how/8655535.cms

Center ropes in states, parties on PM question http://timesofindia....how/8671746.cms

Baba black sheep have you lost your mind? http://www.dnaindia....php?postid=2751

Is it the end of the road for the Lokpal panel? http://ibnlive.in.co...l/155525-3.html

Govt opposes inclusion of PM, judiciary in Lokpal ambit http://www.dnaindia....l-ambit_1549438

[sgiitk 32]

@rajanmehta; what else did you expect from the crooks. They will not like their own rear end to be burnt to cinder.

See the excitement yesterday by Balwa (and possibly Raja) wanting to turn approver.

[rajanmehta 4,056]

Baba Ramdev & supporters removed from a peaceful protest site in a mid night police crackdown... Lathis, Water Canons..

Govt Reason: He did not agree to our viewpoint & the protest was taking a political turn... So what?

Whether one agrees with Baba Ramdev's agenda (Political or otherwise) or detest him... Can't one protest though not to govt's liking? And everything is political in a Democracy..

Are such strong arm methods justified? Will it backfire to haunt govt?

EMERGENCY redux anyone?

[sougatadc 358]

The rulers will always try to kill the uprising, history says so. But this time Baba Ramdev's fast was tactfully reduced to 'much ado about nothing'. IMO, this fast lacked the spontaneity of that was found in case of Anna Hazare's. Why should Baba Ramdev give the opportunity to the ruling party to call his noble cause 'five-star fasting' sarcastically? Erecting an air-conditioned pandal for the fasting played negative role. And the supporters of the fasting satyagrah movement of Baba Ramdev were all his disciples (who follow him in doing Kapala-Bhati and Anulom-Bilom asanas). It was somewhat like Baba Ramdev's own movement, not a mass movement that we saw/participated in case of Anna Hazare's fasting.

Anybody raising the black money issue should be supported. Everybody knows that huge amount of black money is there in Swiss bank. But Govt is making some persons scapegoats. The politicians should be booked. We all know that the politicians have the largest amount of black money. Let us all raise voice and play the role of ombudsmen so that govt cannot play tricks in this issue.

[digitalnirvana 646]

Sougata da but that still does not justify how could they remove Ramdev and his supporters from the protest site.

Rajan bhai the reason being given is police had withdrawn clearance to the protest site.

[kshah 452]

Its not democratic and must be condemned. Wether supporter or not. I know most o the people support any movement against corruption.

I have a feeling that behind this created chaos, 2G accused will be freed by courts. Then this chaos will calm down. Government I not going to loose any thing bcause elections are still very far and memory of public is not even few days long.

Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk

[raccoon 53]

Government I not going to loose any thing bcause elections are still very far and memory of public is not even few days long.

Bingo! I don't know why everyone blames only politicians. In the end we get what exactly we deserve. We elect those who are not fit to rule by any yardstick, and then we pretend to cry foul. And the entertainment continues.

Edited June 5, 2011 by raccoon

[sougatadc 358]

^^^

Politicians are blamed only because they are the least educated and the most corrupted lot, albeit exceptions are there .

We, the poor electors don't have any option but to choose among the otherwise avoidable bunch of people. There is no button on the EVM named "None of the above".

Political analysts explain if such a button is introduced in the EVM, there is a possibility of democratic impasse that most of the electors of a constituency select that button. There is no solution for that impasse, if arises. This is not at all an improbable condition, particularly with educated electors.

As long as this is there, the 'entertainment' will continue

[digitalnirvana 646]

^

What other option is there? We do not have none of the above option in EVMs. And worldwide first past the post voting method is used, UK tried to implement alternate vote but public rejected.

“As per the present procedure, they can go to the polling booth and fill up the required form under Rule 49 (O) of the Conduct of Election Rules stating that they do not want to vote for any of the candidates. But this process does not provide secrecy. The Election Commission (of India) must include the option — ‘none of the above' — in the EVMs (Electronic Voting Machines) itself,” he suggests.

http://www.hindu.com/2011/02/28/stories/2011022863350500.htm