India Against Corruption - Parivartan

[Rahul Always 87]

The post here on corruption has been interesting to read, to say the least. However, one vital point that we all missed out was what was brought out by the topic opener, that we all are part and parcel of the same disease. How many of us have refused to pay a bribe for conveniences which would have caused us pain to get otherwise?

How many of us have not greased the palm of the policewaala when stopped for a traffic offence? How many of us have stood actually in the line to get a passport / driving licence etc? Instead, we would all prefer to take the easier wrong path, give something "extra" to an agent so that we have it all easier. The so called large scale corruption seen at higher levels is just a manifestation of the inherent problem that is existing in our society. We prefer to make our paths smoother through liberal application of the "Gandhi" not realising that it has become the norm these days. We, who can afford it, do it without blinking an eye lid. The people who eventually suffer are those who cannot afford since the bribe taker has got used to accepting unaccounted money and refuses to work without the same.

So IMHO, whatever happens, whatever bill gets passed, nothing is going to change. Things would continue to remain the same. We would still continue to work as people who grease their paths whenever they can rather than sticking it out in the rough. I dont say that am perfect. I too have been part and parcel of the entire game and have only ended up trying to justify my own actions to myself rather than modifying them for the better.

Corruption would stop when people start from the lowest levels and progress upwards, when we are prepared for a bit (or maybe more than a bit) of hardship in order to meet our requirements.

Till then, nothing changes, and that is my personal view on this blight on our great nation.

And yes one more thing, let us stop getting paranoid about saffron, white, green, and the various other hues of religions. Every religion is good, it is the minuscule minority in each that spoils it.

[drabhayshah76 7]

Very Well Said.

The post here on corruption has been interesting to read, to say the least. However, one vital point that we all missed out was what was brought out by the topic opener, that we all are part and parcel of the same disease. How many of us have refused to pay a bribe for conveniences which would have caused us pain to get otherwise?

How many of us have not greased the palm of the policewaala when stopped for a traffic offence? How many of us have stood actually in the line to get a passport / driving licence etc? Instead, we would all prefer to take the easier wrong path, give something "extra" to an agent so that we have it all easier. The so called large scale corruption seen at higher levels is just a manifestation of the inherent problem that is existing in our society. We prefer to make our paths smoother through liberal application of the "Gandhi" not realising that it has become the norm these days. We, who can afford it, do it without blinking an eye lid. The people who eventually suffer are those who cannot afford since the bribe taker has got used to accepting unaccounted money and refuses to work without the same.

So IMHO, whatever happens, whatever bill gets passed, nothing is going to change. Things would continue to remain the same. We would still continue to work as people who grease their paths whenever they can rather than sticking it out in the rough. I dont say that am perfect. I too have been part and parcel of the entire game and have only ended up trying to justify my own actions to myself rather than modifying them for the better.

Corruption would stop when people start from the lowest levels and progress upwards, when we are prepared for a bit (or maybe more than a bit) of hardship in order to meet our requirements.

Till then, nothing changes, and that is my personal view on this blight on our great nation.

And yes one more thing, let us stop getting paranoid about saffron, white, green, and the various other hues of religions. Every religion is good, it is the minuscule minority in each that spoils it.

[I_C_U 10]

Finally, "been there ... done that" moment.

First hand look at the protest at Azad maidan (opp. CST station) in mumbai.

A real scene of patriotism. People from all walks, ages, sections, rich, poor, collegiates, office goers, retired, everyone was to be seen.

Edited August 17, 2011 by I_C_U

[sougatadc 358]

The earlier josh in Anna or Ramdev's support is no longer there after the Ramleela miscalculation of Ramdev.

Before that lakhs voted for Anna, but there isn't much hype left. The politicians have been succeeded a lot to weaken Anna's movement. Everybody knows there are lakhs of crores of rupees in Swiss bank, but the politicians are making some eyewash on this.

[rahulmalik_81 1]

Jailer to KASAB: y r u so happy???Kasab : I am not Indian, I Hate India, I killed Indians,

but I am sure I am safe in

India.??

.

.

Journalist to Anna Hazare : y r

u so sad???

Anna : I am Indian, I love my

India n Indians,

but I am not sure when I wil b

killed.??

.

.

This is INDIA.!

[city02 63]

has anyone here heard of:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Godwin's law is a humorous observation made by Mike Godwin in 1990 that has become an Internet adage.

It states: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1 (100%)."

In other words, Godwin put forth the hyperbolic observation that, given enough time, in any online discussion—regardless of topic or scope—someone inevitably criticizes some point made in the discussion by comparing it to beliefs held by Hitler and the Nazis.

21 year old observation and still holds true today!

The basic point is corruption vs anti corruption.

...

Heck if Hitler was doing a satyagraha now for anti corruption I would support him.

[city02 63]

...

to allow Anna Hazare's version of the bill.

Lastly nothing justifies the use of force to drive out the protesters.

i beg to disagree - if protesters turn violent, then non-lethal force is justified world wide as we saw in the london riots.

before anyone gets upset - i'm not saying if the use of force was justified in this particular case;

its a general response to a genralisation above.

There is a divergence of opinions here and before it becomes a full blown debate I would stop. We all want corruption free India.

we should be celebrating a 'divergence of opinions' since that leads to a better discussion in any forum.

nothing wrong with 'full blown debate's either - as long as they remain civil / polite they should be encouraged.

[sgiitk 32]

Now we can see what was the force of Gandhiji's satyagraha, and how he mobilised the masses. Agreed the media was not there, and one could not expect All India Radio to be exactly objective. So it was the local vernacular press which did the job.

One interesting question,"Were the Intelligence Agencies sleeping?". No wonder the same thing happens every time there is any problem. If as per Chidambaran & co the decision to Arrest Anna purely a local police decision.Of course it was still being claimed that the decision tor release him was again a totally police decision. Then what were Manhmohan Singh and Rahul Gandhi trying to meet and discuss in the afternoon. Who is trying to take whom for a ride? Are we that dumb?

Even the incident at Rajghat where 2000+ people congregated, with no prior intimation should have been a warning.

[digitalnirvana 646]

has anyone here heard of:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Godwin's law is a humorous observation made by Mike Godwin in 1990 that has become an Internet adage.

It states: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1 (100%)."

In other words, Godwin put forth the hyperbolic observation that, given enough time, in any online discussion—regardless of topic or scope—someone inevitably criticizes some point made in the discussion by comparing it to beliefs held by Hitler and the Nazis.

21 year old observation and still holds true today!

The basic point is corruption vs anti corruption.

...

Heck if Hitler was doing a satyagraha now for anti corruption I would support him.

H.V.,

Thanks for informing, did not know that and is indeed thought provoking. Ironically, the law says "someone inevitably criticizes some point made in the discussion by comparing it to beliefs held by Hitler and the Nazis." while I was supporting Hitler in the hypothetical situation of him doing a satyagraha, not criticizing. *nervous*

What does that make me?

[digitalnirvana 646]

...

to allow Anna Hazare's version of the bill.

Lastly nothing justifies the use of force to drive out the protesters.

i beg to disagree - if protesters turn violent, then non-lethal force is justified world wide as we saw in the london riots.

before anyone gets upset - i'm not saying if the use of force was justified in this particular case;

its a general response to a genralisation above.

There is a divergence of opinions here and before it becomes a full blown debate I would stop. We all want corruption free India.

we should be celebrating a 'divergence of opinions' since that leads to a better discussion in any forum.

nothing wrong with 'full blown debate's either - as long as they remain civil / polite they should be encouraged.

The discussion was becoming a battle of words than an exchange of opinions so I stopped. The London riots, eh, that is a different kettle of fish altogether. You bring up interesting topics. The Met police did not do anything to stop the riots, what was initially anger at killing of a gangster soon turned into unchecked looting and vandalism. The UK is too politically correct to take action against the wrongdoers, the police is a social service not a force anymore due to the mindless lack of common sense.

I am ok to have a discussion, the thing is, if you see the number of posts in this thread, it can give you an indication why the latest movement was not gathering that much support, that has changed mind now due to the events triggered by the government. Initially it was fashionable to support the movement by clicking on petitions to support Anna, but once that novelty wears off very few care to think about the cause itself rather than the hype surrounding it. This is not just true for this but for all the movements which require mass participation check the reliance data plans thread for example. This is not a fad of India but all over, youth are too preoccupied to think, a cause is not enough, the cause needs to have a sense of being hip for it to have effect.

This is of course not true for all so we see thousands in candle light vigil now, they follow this cause because they care. Not all of us do.

Simple question. Whoever signed the petition for Anna Hazare earlier would have continued to receive E-Mails from them for newer movements. How many did we sign. I admit I signed none because I was disillusioned by how the movement had been thwarted.

[sgiitk 32]

May I ask the Congresswallahs. Have they forgotten that in the freedom struggle how many laws were deliberately broken. Have the forgotten Gandhiji?

One interesting observation, the mood was far more aggressive yesterday, portraits of Bhagatsingh, slogans of Inquilab Zindabad and singing of Sarfaroshi ki tamanna ....

Arun Jaitley was correct when he asserted that no politician alive today could have collected the crowds of the magnitude.

[sougatadc 358]

If the antonym of 'Pro' is 'Con', then the simple analogy is antonym of 'Progress' = 'Congress'..............

[csmart 472]

Wear Black Dress on 19th August at work To show your support for Anna Hazare and Janlokpal Bill – employees of various organizations have decided to Wear Black Dress on 19th August at work. Please spread the message to your colleagues and wear black dress on 19th August when you come to work. You may also wear a black arm band if you wish. Show your support against Corruption.

This is the least you can do even if you can join the protest because of your office work. Let us make it successful.

Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk

[city02 63]

just like racism did not end in america with the election of the first black president,

similarly corruption will not end with the passage of ANY bill

there are over a dozen laws on the books already to deal with many different forms of corruption -

we don't need more laws; we need better enforcement mechanisms and faster delivery of justice

both don't need additional bills but better funding and infrastructure to enable them

i have nothing against the bill [either version is better than nothing i suppose]

but i have no expectations that it will be a magic bullet to kill corruption which is endemic in our country

i can guarantee you will still be forced to pay bribes to get your work done after passage of the bill

[drmadhu 87]

^^^

This bill is stronger than older bill and anna team also demanding older bill will merge in this bill ,

Kindly download the anna's janlokpal bill from following link http://www.indiaagainstcorruption.org/

[dkaile 1,051]

Android App for India against corruption is now available in the android market - https://market.android.com/details?id=com.kuiperapps.ati.officialapp&feature=search_result

[rajanmehta 4,056]

Any guesses how the Ram - Leela is going to play out going forward?

Here is one "Conspiracy Theory"..

Today: Anna brigade has already softened up on inclusion of Judges.. Few Days : Will come up around exlusion of PM also..

The "Yuvraj" is protected for life now..

Nightingale's conscious is stirred, Divine "moral" intervention is made with a veto in public interest..

Rest of the Jan Lokpal accepted, may be with few changes..

She has the "Moral High Ground" now..Opposition left with no issue to milk..

And it won't be relevant for the next election.. "Yuva Neta" and "Taking India into 22nd Century" can be marketed if "aam aadmi" is past by it's sell date..

Everyone goes home happy except Yum Yum Singh with Brand Value finished completely and Rest of the ruling party netas scratching their heads for inventing new ideas for collecting election funds..

[prafull4u 24]

i feel even if PM and judiciary are kept out of the bill still it will strong enough.... but i dont feel congress will ever agree on it.. Bhala apni paanw pe kulhadi koun maarta hai

[sougatadc 358]

Friends, just think over a simple point: The followers of Anna who are fighting for corruption free nation, are they ready to become corruption free themselves? How many people are themselves non-corrupt? Why the don't get corruption-free first?

If the aam janta become corruption free, corruption will automatically vanish.

[phonegeek 588]

^ If the people are corrupt, they become so because they have no other option, on the other side, these politicians and bureaucrats became corrupt because of their personal gain and no fear of law.

[Rahul Always 87]

^^^ @ Phonegeek, that is an absolutely gross distortion of facts. No one and I repeat, no one can ever "force" you to become corrupt. It is not like anyone tortured you and made you corrupt. The person who pays a bribe to get things done knows he is doing wrong and yet does it simply because he prefers to choose the easier wrong over the harder right. It is opinions like this which embolden politicians. The day everyone takes a pledge to stop paying bribes, to stop breaking queues, to become disciplined, to ensure the prevalence of right over wrong, that is the time corruption would truly end.

An easy way of looking at it would be ..... most of us are not corrupt simply due to lack of opportunity. If we did have a chance to make undeserved gains, would we refuse? The answer to that would reflect the true nature of our characters.

The day we accept that there can be delays in processing of applications not because the other person is looking for gratification but simply because the system is slow and factor that delay into our planning, the day we actually stop at red lights even when a cop is not present at a junction, the day we stand in a queue and quietly at that, the day we actually stop our cars when we see a pedestrian crossing the road, the day we become disciplined and work simply because we have to and not because our boss is still in office, our nation would become the best in the world. Till then, no one can save India.

[sougatadc 358]

^ If the people are corrupt, they become so because they have no other option, on the other side, these politicians and bureaucrats became corrupt because of their personal gain and no fear of law.

Sitting in a glass house and pelting stone to others?

Who is preventing the aam admi to become non-corrupt? They don't have any option? Ask yourself the question once again and you will surely feel ashamed for this comment.

What for the Left are supporting this movement? For political gain of-course. They raised kick-back issue during Bofors episode against Amitabh Bachchan and forced him to resign, and now they are 'friends'! Is it 'enemy's enemy is my friend' theory? Isn't Amitabh Bachchan using this platform against his rival family? And what was the view of the Left parties on Guru Ravishankar's 'Art of Living' or against Baba Ramdev? For what common interest they have come together: 'fight against corruption' or some different interest?

Everybody of us wants corruption-free India. But who are supporting Anna or Kiran Bedi, just think over it. It's my request.

[santanu@impaq 16]

+1 , sougata ji

[kshah 452]

Nothing will change unless we ourselves want to change for a change.

I am sure, as per our social character, we will create another GOD, this time named ANNA, I am not saying he is FALSE GOD, I mean that we will make FALSE GOD. What he is doing is out of his optimism that he could change. But we the people who are supporting him and rallying for him are the people who want change but not willing to change. ANNA movement may succeed in bringing excellent LOKPAL bill. But bill alone without sincere USERS it will go in hand of SINCERE MISUSERS and then our society will say CORRUPT POLITICIANS succeed in killing LOKPAL bill.

Ideally speaking ANNA is not a person responsible for any change. He should be taken as a metaphor representing the fact that ONE PERSON ALONE CAN DO SO MUCH because he decided not to bow down and chose to follow the path for larger good.

But we are "destiny" oriented people. We are destined to suffer.

Edited August 20, 2011 by kshah

[csmart 472]

i feel that so much support is mere out of frustration. a common man is frustrated because basic requirements of good roads, decent govt. schools, easy access to cheap and better medical services, electricity etc. nobody is highlighting these points. every body has jumped on corruption wagon. but nobody ever bother to work for betterment of their own locality.

i am not in favor of corruption but then i also do not support the way Anna Hazare (AH) is going. you cannot get everything you want. you cannot just "blackmail" government, whether its right or wrong. in future anybody will start fasting for his personal agenda. where was he when Swami Nigamananda died after fasting for 115 days. Not a single person rose in his (Swami Nigamananda)support and 90% of us are not aware of him. AH also has support of Megha Patkar. We all know her source of funding against Narmada Dam. Baba Ramdev and Sri Ravi Shankar are multi millionaire and can speak anything. As @sougatadc said, all are for personal gains and nothing else.

i am asking people, what have you done on your part to stop corruption. we simply protest. helmet is compulsory and we should understand that it is for our safety. but we simply do not use it, except for people in few states. when caught, we pay bribe. we are such that we do not want to follow the rules and when caught do not want to pay fines.

Edited August 20, 2011 by csmart