Buying a new car? Discuss here!

[amitnsonu 72]

what he hell!!!

yesterday my friend suggested me to get a CNG kit although I knew the bad points of its and told him, he said "kuch nahi hota yaar".

then I made up my mind for CNG finally which I was avoiding since 1 year.

then after reading kshah's post I am again not in mood of installing CNG...

not in a position to sell this one and get new diesel car and I want to run this car for atleast 3 more years.

Its just common man who is suffering because of this @#$# govt.

[SumitVerma 187]

@ Kshah ji, you missed the major disadvantage of losing boot space and odd smell in some cases if I am not wrong.

[kshah 452]

When u go for sedan u get boot of hatch back. This is how I chose my car.

Smell - I have not experienced so far (4 years almost), may be fitment related issue.

If running per day is less than 25 kms, CNG would be as expensive as petrol in total. If running is around 40 kms cng would be as much as diesel.

Cng gives 1.5 times (approx) milage then petrol (liter vs kg)

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[aalok 442]

^ loosing boot space is the biggest drawback in hatchbacks, while fitting aftermarket CNG. but in sedan, the scenario would be entirely different, as pointed by kalpak sir..

as my daily commuting is of 45 odd kms., was thinking of going for CNG.. will decide after visiting A.S.S. tomorrow that how can i save boot space (as there is no such boot space issue in factory fitted hatchbacks, i presume..)

[kshah 452]

BTW does any one know what is smuggled most from our neighbouring country (pakistan)? Diesel :-)

So prices are ought to go up.

By default diesel engines are fuel efficient. Hence running is cheaper.

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[joshm 818]

well guyz i did many calculations before buying a new car , and TBH however cheap and environment friendly , i never considered CNG its a general idea that CNG vehicle gives no driving pleasure at all ( pickup goes down like anything ), every now and then there is some issue, resale value of the vehicle goes down the drain. the life of the vehicle shortens a lot,

But if you are hell bent on getting CNG kit installed then get it done from the maker itself, it will give you warranty along with the most advanced vehicle friendly kit.

If anyone really wants to save money then its time to switch to diesel engine, TBH i would have gone for the diesel as well but my daily commute + my preference for an utterly quiet car with good pickup forced me to go for a petrol engine powered RITZ and i am happy with it.

and if one is interested then buy the diesel car now as the govt is planning to levy more taxes on diesel cars soon.

[amitnsonu 72]

A nice article from today's ET regarding diesel/petrol

All Pumped Up, Diesel Ain’t Dirty

The petrol-diesel price gap went up again this week. But that isn’t the only reason diesel cars are becoming more attractive. Diesel technology is leading the change

Malini Goyal

Rajnish Kohli drives around in his 10th car, an Audi that runs on petrol. For the Delhibased IT executive, the thumb rule for picking a car has always been: if he liked what he saw, he bought it. In Kohli’s mind, there was never a debate about choosing the petrol or diesel variant.

But when Kohli plans to go car shopping for his 11th car next year, things will be different. “Diesel can’t swing the buy. But it will now be a preference,” he says. So what’s made Kohli, who has never bothered about his fuel bills, think in these lines? Logging over 100 km a day and the sharp gap between petrol and diesel prices has meant that diesel has entered his subconsciousness, admits Kohli. But what swings the deal is the fact that diesel options in premium sedans have multiplied. Twelve hikes in petrol prices (since June 2010) and a 25 gap in price per litre is just part of the reason why consumers are opting for diesel.

In Mumbai , Nikunj Sanghi, president , Federation of Automotive Dealers Association (FADA), narrates an anecdote to illustrate the changing consumer mindsets on diesel cars. As a Mahindra & Mahindra dealer, his preferred wheels of choice was a Mahindra vehicle but his wife would sneer at them. “She would just refuse to sit in one,” Sanghi says. Some of these diesel-powered drives — Armadas, Commanders — smelled and clattered so much that they felt like trucks. A few years ago, Sanghi pushed her to buy a Renault Logan (diesel) and after some persuasion, she agreed. Recently, she went and picked up M&M’s Verito on her own. “Diesels have undergone a complete makeover,” he says.

Dirty diesel is now a thing of the past. A decade ago, diesel was a smelly, grimy, sooty fuel that consumers smirked at, auto MNCs with a reputation avoided and an environment-conscious government curbed. The waiting period for diesel variants of Maruti Swift and Dzire is an unbelievable six months. For VW’s Vento and Polo, the waiting period varies between four and eight weeks.

For automobile companies, diesel is making or breaking their fortunes. On the back of its diesel portfolio, Volkswagen is soaring with a 70% plus sales in August when car sales dipped. Honda, with no diesel offering, was forced to cut prices of its City sedan by 66,000 and hatchback Jazz by 1.6 lakh to push sales. Hyundai can’t wait to get its new upcoming diesel engine plant by 2013.

The Indian government is helping diesel’s case big time. Amid persistent inflation, while rising global prices have pushed petrol prices up to 66.84 a litre in Delhi, diesel remains 38% cheaper at 41.29 a litre. Beyond Indian shores too, the petrol versus diesel debate has been raging for long.

The Global Divide

Even though Mercedes-Benz launched its first diesel passenger car in the 1930s, diesel has been the ugly fuel for the passenger car industry for decades. While it has always been far more efficient fuel giving higher mileage compared to petrol — a reason why heavy users like commercial vehicles use diesel — its use in the passenger vehicle industry was restricted for two reasons. One, diesel was relatively more polluting — releasing higher levels of particulate matter and harmful oxides of nitrogen and sulphur.

The past two decades saw increasing awareness and stringent curbs on vehicular emissions in different parts of the world. Led by California in the US, many other states and countries have regulated usage of diesel due to its polluting nature. In the US, availability of diesel at retail gas stations too is an issue. In India, Delhi took the lead by replacing diesel with CNG in public transport.

But there was another more important reason why diesel was not popular among passenger car industry. Diesel engines were bulky, noisy, more difficult and costly to maintain. Petrol, on the other hand, is smoother, more refined and has a higher throttle. “All this helped the case of petrol engines through the 1990s,” says Deepesh Rathore, director (India) IHS Global Insight, a research firm. Most car companies — American, European and Japanese — focussed on building petrol cars.

The push for change for diesel began in the 1990s when Europe’s mileage-driven thrust nudged its car manufacturers to spend more R&D dollars on diesel technologies. So today, while the US and Japan — the two big hubs for car manufacturers — continue to be petrol-driven markets, Europe leads the world in diesel engines and diesel technologies.

It is exactly for this reason that Europe-focused manufacturers — Fiat, VW, Mercedes Benz and even American auto companies like Ford and Opel who have a strong presence in Europe — have a good line-up of diesel engines. Japanese companies like Honda, Toyota, Suzuki, Nissan and even Koreans like Hyundai have lagged behind. In India, Fiat’s small diesel engine is being used by Tata Motors, Maruti and GM.

China, the new 600-pound gorilla of the car club, should have been setting the new trends on fuel usage. But it too swings the petrol way for multiple reasons even as it bets big on electric vehicles. One, China’s car market offers very limited options in diesel vehicles. This constrains demand. Two, many Chinese cities do not allow registration of diesel vehicles. Three, legislation norms in China requires lower amounts of sulphur in diesel and that variant is in limited supply. But the big reason is that “Chinese government does not favour diesel as the local industry lacks experience in developing advanced diesel power trains,” says Chinabased Bill Russo, senior adviser, Booz & Co, a consultancy.

Cleaner, Smarter Diesel

But other governments have been pushing for cleaner low-sulphur diesel for years. Last year, India joined in with Delhi and 12 other Indian cities introducing low-sulphur diesel.

All this comes on the back of technological innovations brought about by car manufacturers to improve diesel engines — on both emission and performance counts. The first game changer was Bosch’s (common rail direct injection (CRDi) technology that made diesel engines run faster, quieter and smoother almost like the petrol one while boosting its efficiency by 25% or so. VW, with aspirations to lead the auto world, is betting on TDi — turbo-charged direct injection.

Soon-to-be-implemented Euro V norms in India will help diesel as these engines are installed with catalytic converters which have lower carbon monoxide emission.

This will greatly increase the attractiveness of diesel engines in future, say auto pundits. But some stubborn mature markets like the US and Japan are finding it difficult to shift preferences. “Diesel gives me 30% more fuel economy. These engines have changed so much in the recent past that when you sit inside the car you won’t know the difference. Still, Americans’ perception of diesel — of loud, rumbling engines that do not start in winter - continues,” says Rebecca Lindland, US-based auto analyst with IHS Global Insight.

The India Playfield

Which way will India s w i n g? Though minuscule now, India could be the next big frontier for diesel engines. It is tipped to be the world’s third largest passenger vehicle market by 2020.

The historical price-skew favours diesel over petrol big time. For many Indians, still buying their first cars, operating costs are a critical factor under consideration. “The petroldiesel price differential will always be there. And diesel with better technology, more power, more fuel efficiency and better environment —I see a big growth for the next four to six years,” says Neeraj Garg, director, Volkswagen (passenger car) India.

While diesel cars are more expensive than their petro counterparts, it is the running cost that gives them an edge. Fuel efficiency is among the top three criteria that Indian customers benchmark their cars before purchase. “Repair and maintenance costs of diesel engine are typically 14% of total operating costs per km as against 8% for petrol engine,” says Singapore-based Mohit Arora, executive director, JD Power, a research firm. “That 6% differential is more than offset by the huge price differential (38%) that the two fuels have in India,” adds Arora.

The thumb-rule till recently was that if a car owner clocks around 11,000 km annually, the benefits of a diesel car begins to far outweigh its higher costs. That threshold should now have lowered a bit with the new round of petrol price hikes.

Most importantly, diesel’s prospects in India are also boosted by the fact that more automobile companies are now launching new cars in diesel variants to woo customers. So far, diesel engines have largely come in bigger vehicles, above 1200 cc.

The smallest that was available till recently was 1200 cc Fiat engine. GM has launched a 936 cc diesel variant of its Beat model. The engine was specially developed for Indian customers. “Our R&D will continue to look at smaller engines [diesel],” says Michael Boneham, Ford India MD. Honda-SIEL, the company that stayed firm on petrol so far, is expected to launch diesel variants of City and Jazz in India by 2013. Hyundai is expected to launch diesel variants of i10 and Santro in future. Maruti Suzuki is developing a sub 1,000-cc engine for India even as VW is likely bring in the diesel variant of the smaller Up in the near future.

Says JS Chopra, head, Delphi-TVS Diesel Systems, a supplier of diesel engine component to M&M and Tata Motors: “Diesel option is compulsory now for every model. For a car manufacturer, its range is not complete without a diesel option.” Many like Ford, GM are setting up flexible engine plants that can easily swing between petrol and diesel to cope with this shift.

All this will mean a country that was once on a path to shunning diesel may well be embracing it. Some like Gulshan Ahuja, secretary general, FADA are backing diesel all the way. “Even if there is price parity between petrol and diesel, I would bet on diesel as the fuel of the future,” says Ahuja.

ENGINES: KNOW YOUR DIESEL FROM PETROL

Firing The Engine

Petrol engines get fired up with a spark plug. Diesel engines use direct fuel injection method in which the highly compressed hot air is used to ignite the fuel. During harsh winter, when the air isn’t hot enough to ignite the engine (unlike petrol which gets ignited with a spark) diesel vehicles of the past have had starting trouble. But a new generation of diesel engines takes care of this problem.

Fuel Efficiency

Diesel gives more km per unit than petrol — because it has higher energy density and hence produces more energy per given unit. Diesel engines also use lesser fuel when idle as against petrol, by some account, just 1/3rd.

Example Skoda Octavia (petrol) gives 8.1 km/l in the city as against the diesel which gives 10.7 km/l

Performance

Reaction to accelerator pedal, pickup for a petrol engine is faster and smoother. Diesel cars (without a turbo) have a slight lag in responding to the demand from the accelerator. But the latest CRDi engines with turbo chargers puts it neck-to-neck with petrol.

Example Skoda Octavia (petrol) does 0-100 km in 9 seconds but the diesel takes 13.6 seconds

Power Factor

Diesel engines have a higher torque or turning power vis-a-vis the petrol ones. So when driving uphill on a lower gear, a diesel car will take lesser effort to drive up due to diesel’s higher thermal efficiency and higher torque. This is the reason why heavy vehicles typically have diesel engines. But petrol engines give a far smoother, peppier ride

Example Skoda Octavia (petrol 1.8) gives a maximum speed of 215 kmph as against diesel (1.9) that gives 175 kmph

Weight & Wear-Tear

Due to high compression ratios and high cylinder pressure, diesel engines must be built to withstand more wear and tear than petrol. As a result, critical car/engine components like crankshaft, cylinders have to be thicker and heavier. This makes them heavier and pushes up the sticker price.

Example Octavia (diesel) gross vehicle weight is 1,855 kg as against petrol variant 1,810 kg

WHY DIESEL MAKES MORE SENSE

Better Mileage

Latest diesel engines are at least 25% more fuel efficient than petrol

Cheaper Commute

Diesel cars, though costlier, make sense if it clocks 11,000 km plus annually

Less Polluting

Cleaner fuel, latest tech and catalytic converters means diesel is no longer dirty

[@Akash 23]

How about electric drives? Technology has matured with Li ion batteries and we have powerful motors now.

Cars with solar roof tops to drive the electrical subsystem during day is catching trend.

I hope we solve our electricity deficit with the help of nuclear reactors and solar power plants.

Here is good video at TED:

[SumitVerma 187]

^

Talk about India, where Toyota Prius is being sold > 20lacs and Honda had to give its Hybrid Civic for 50% off!

Edited September 18, 2011 by SumitVerma

[@Akash 23]

^^^

I knew somebody will come up with this argument. None of them were entry level car. Both of them were imported in India as assembled unit which attracts duty of more than 100%. Above all, they were runing on combustion engines which charges battery and it was not attractive to consumers, who are looking for alternative to petrol, diesel or gas.

We are talking about 100% electric driven cars. Now it is possible to get a 65 km drive on a single charge. There are batteries which can be charged to full in 25 mins with specialized chargers. In US, Europe and China charging stations are coming up.

We need action from Maruti, GM or TATA. Definitely, battery cost is higher. But, I think every company will look for renting out batteries rather than selling them with car.

And this is coming...

http://www.thetorque...t_electric.html

I am unaware of any direction by GOI, but US Federal Govt funds upto 7500$ for these cars. Cars are still luxury in India.

Added : GOI has declared a subsidy of 20% or Rs 100000 (whichever is lower) for electric cars.

Source : http://machinist.in/...d=2891&Itemid=2

Edited September 18, 2011 by @Akash

[kshah 452]

Electric is viable option but unless our perception of range chnges. As on today with available technologies, economicaly viable car can not run more than 150 kms (80% of cars in world runs less than 80 kms per day)

Also speed of 60-80 kms gives best range.

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[SumitVerma 187]

Batteries for me can never be an alternative of fuel for cars atleast!

No one is patient enough to halt of 25 mins (Minimum as told above) after every 80 Kms.

I've seen cars running solely on vegetable oil on Discovery Turbo, now that according to me is a hard core solution if we can find cheaper way of producing vegetable oil.

[aalok 442]

^ loosing boot space is the biggest drawback in hatchbacks, while fitting aftermarket CNG. but in sedan, the scenario would be entirely different, as pointed by kalpak sir..

as my daily commuting is of 45 odd kms., was thinking of going for CNG.. will decide after visiting A.S.S. tomorrow that how can i save boot space (as there is no such boot space issue in factory fitted hatchbacks, i presume..)

CNG kits are not available in A.S.S.(in lucknow), but they told me that they can arrange, after full down payment of approx 60k. on the contrary, they offered me the conversion of LPG kit (converting Santro Xing to Santro Xing ECO), within 45k, that too without loosing boot space..

Idea of any mod related to fitment of alternative fuel dropped now.. planning to keep her stock & thinking of another vehicle..

[csmart 472]

LPG can be a option. but you do not get LPG everywhere. In Mumbai, LPG stations are very limited while CNG is available almost everywhere.

LPG is fitted where your spare tyre resides. you have to keep the spare tyre in boot. the ware and tare of LPG is similar to CNG.

[drmadhu 87]

LPG is very costly against CNG not going for LPG going for CNG after availability of that.

[hiteshkkk1 327]

Planning to book etios liva diesel. Ex show room price is 5.45 lacs.. ETA march 2012 and I am not in hurry but need it till april 12.

Any comments?

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Edited September 19, 2011 by hiteshkkk1

[SumitVerma 187]

Etios for me never lived upto my expectations, I find Swift much more appealing + service backup is just best!

[dkaile 1,051]

^

My 2 friends bought Swift diesel's previous model and 1 bought the Dzire Diesel, and all 3 cars have started to shake, rattle and roll within 2-3 years of ownership. Suzuki's cars in India are 'over-hyped' as they were able to garner the maximum market share and dealerships when no competition existed and they are ruling on their past laurels. Use a Toyota for a few years and I will guarantee you that you will never go back to any Suzuki.

[ani_meher 42]

dkaile: I agree about the engine part, but all the rest in Etios/Liva is really poor quality. The seats made by gunnybag quality material, not much sound insulation, low quality interiors with pathetic looking faded white central console. A purchasor of about 5 Lakh Rs car deserves quality!

[csmart 472]

I agree with ani.. in order to reduce the cost, interiors of Etios is very inferior. you do not feel that it is from Toyota stable. even swift interior was not great but definitely better than Etios.

by the way, even Honda is coming out with small hatch back, Brio. no idea whether it will have diesel engine or not.

[neerajayshree 36]

Guys I have a Spark and was thinking of Fitting a CNG kit , Boot is not a Problem for me as i use it to comute from Off to Home, Not much of a Traveller, Major factor being my Car gives an Average of 10kmpl with Ac and 11-12 without ac. Even when i Drove to Pune It gave me a Avg of 12 with AC.

So was seriously planing to Switch to CNG

Searched on the net and got addresses of Authorised Agents of Mahanagar Gas

and was Quoted a price of 32 K including Rto Passing etc.

Was about to get it fitted and read post from Kshah and am again dicy

one drawback left out was Frequent filling

considering CNG kits come for 9-11 kg's and considering a milage of 1.5 times of petrol (12 in my case ) i can drive for 11*11 = 121km before a fresh recharge

121 km is like once in 3 days even if u drive 40 Km per day (bench mark for CNG as tated above to be cheeper than petrol)

So more cons then pro for CNG

back to 72 Rs. per ltr.

[SumitVerma 187]

^

My 2 friends bought Swift diesel's previous model and 1 bought the Dzire Diesel, and all 3 cars have started to shake, rattle and roll within 2-3 years of ownership. Suzuki's cars in India are 'over-hyped' as they were able to garner the maximum market share and dealerships when no competition existed and they are ruling on their past laurels. Use a Toyota for a few years and I will guarantee you that you will never go back to any Suzuki.

My relative used to study in Gurgaon and lives in Delhi, means up and down daily, mileage was around 70k, no issues faced whatsoever. Maybe his was a rare case.

[dkaile 1,051]

dkaile: I agree about the engine part, but all the rest in Etios/Liva is really poor quality. The seats made by gunnybag quality material, not much sound insulation, low quality interiors with pathetic looking faded white central console. A purchasor of about 5 Lakh Rs car deserves quality!

I sat in the Liva Diesel 2 days back at Delhi and though the seats are not leather it will definitely be be going over the top calling them 'gunnybag material'. Yes, it has a very quirky centre console which was not to my liking either but it is the only diesel engine which is still "Made in Japan". All these seats etc. are upgradable to one's own liking and preferences. It's rear seat had more space than My (now departed) Corolla, 3x 6 footers like me can easily sit abreast, and the boot was nearly double than Swift. The Diesel model has heavier carpeting than petrol (I checked personally) and also the underbody coating has been made better for better sound deadening. Of course you wont feel like sitting in a luxury car in the Liva, but once when you would have driven that car trouble free for 3-4 years then you will realise it's true value.

I agree with ani.. in order to reduce the cost, interiors of Etios is very inferior. you do not feel that it is from Toyota stable. even swift interior was not great but definitely better than Etios.

by the way, even Honda is coming out with small hatch back, Brio. no idea whether it will have diesel engine or not.

Brio has NO diesel planned and the boot is 1/4 of the Liva though interior fit and finish is top notch.

Both the Swift and Brio may have better interiors than Liva but not it's durability and long term economics, this much I can guarantee as a Toyota owner and loyalist.

Edited September 20, 2011 by dkaile

[ani_meher 42]

How I wish Liva diesel would come with Jazz or Brio interiors! That would be a dream car

[joshm 818]

well one thing and this i am telling by experience of having practicall 80% Maruti suzukis in my family, that

after around 2 years or so the cars start to produce all sorts of noises , i mean you ll see that the rattles and sounds and noises they start to come from all sorts of places in the car,

no two ways about the fact that the overall build quality has been below average in all its variants

the biggest PLUS is their service network , i mean its very good , i know with my experience as well as through the guyz who are working in it.

the thing that we in our family believe is Hyudai has better product and maruti has better after sales.

There is no denying that no one can match toyota in this industry its top notch may be initially they are doing all sorts of things to get a foothold but believe me once they are able to get a ground they have the product quality to give the stiffest competition to all.