Clonning Illegal? Discussin It Illegal?

[anujit 0]

Is clonning illegal? Really? Why? Are there acutally laws preventing this?

It might be (illegal) if you clone someone else's phone without permission. But if I willingly give consent to Arun to clone my phone and run up a hefty bill talking to his girlfriend in Shimla - why is that illegal?

And is discussing it so bad? FREE SPEECH! WHAT HAPPENED TO IT!!

Discussing hacking/bugs/backdoors/trapdoors/flaw/security risks/reverse engineering etc is allowed around the world over if done in the right way! Even the draconian DCMA (isn't it?) allows you to do all that - if you agree not to misuse that information.

Have a disclamier in your site. Make sure everyone signs an undertaking not to use this for morally, ethically and legally wrong purposes! I love all the stuff they put out here - I learn so much from it - as does so most of the other people here! Sharing information is good! And RIM and all the other mother$#* cannot stop it with the advent of the internet. And banning of Yahoo! Groups - yeah thats smart!

Viva La Free Speech - isn't that we fought the damn British (and Italians) for!

[emmi 3]

Well ur right dude the topic was closed and i dont feel like visiting rimweb anymore. well look at this way ppl we have stumbled upon a goldmine its upto ur discretion how u utilize it . I hope u make ppl sign the thing like anujit said and start the topic once again.

[niket 0]

We should first check IT or infocom related ACT.

Any lawyer in forum.. Help needed..

[city02 63]

Viva La Free Speech - isn't that we fought the damn British (and Italians) for!

I thought we fought the british for our political and economic freedom!

we have censorship in most other mediums anyways (TV, movie, print) and they are much greater barriers to free speech than one website on one company's products.

unless there is a way to distinguish between posts that do not cause anyone any financial loss (reactivating stolen mobiles, etc), and i don't think there is, its smart to limit our potential liability by not allowing them and avoiding the headaches

its very important to remember that this is a FREE forum -

you get what you pay for.

why should the owners/creators have to deal with any potential problems down the road if they don't want to?

anyone is FREE to create their own sites to discuss all kinds of activites (illegal or simply unethical)

an understandable and rational decision has been made and i for one fully support it

[rajatng 0]

Yes. I also do fully support Aruns decision in this regard.

But, the idea for a legal disclaimer can be looked upon. Every member can accept the terms and conditions specified by the creators of this forum. The terms and conditions could basically mean the following -

1) The creators herewith do not take the responsibility for the authencity of the information presented within this site.

2) The members of this forum may use the information at their own risk.

etc....etc...

The forum will become less entertaining without these discussions.

But a man gotta do what a man gotta do.

Rajat

[anujit 0]

I'm not asking anyone to take any risks! I'm not saying - yeah Arun keep up with the post and go spend some time in jail if need be!

What I'm saying asking is simply this - IS DISCUSSING CLONNING ILLEGAL! Is it? I don't know how it can be.

For that matter I don't know how clonning (with consent) can be illegal - considering...

If I add an extension cord to my landline at home to get a second line - is it illegal? How is clonning different from this? As long as I'm not stealing the line from anyone! True discussing it might lead to others misusing that information to do wrong. But people misuse kitchen knives to stab people as well... its no reason to ban kitchen knives!

But I'm not discussing whether clonning is right or wrong (morally or legally)! Tomorrow if RIM threatens to sue this Forum for posting any article that critizes them - should Arun be responsible for it and should he be forced to take it off (even for poor network or billing problems )? It's pretty darn ridiculous. All I'm asking is for the moderates of the forum to have a conviction in what they do and not be swayed by rumours and third party inferences.

Talk to RIM about the matter if you have to and get their views! And stand up for what you believe in. If you believe that clonning is wrong - why did you let people discuss it in the first place? If you don't - make your voice heard!

And finally - I'm pretty sure Bill Gates didn't go to jail because the 9/11 hijackers trained themselves using Microsoft Flight Simmulator!

[emmi 3]

And finally - I'm pretty sure Bill Gates didn't go to jail because the 9/11 hijackers trained themselves using Microsoft Flight Simmulator!

Cool punch dude.

what r u waiting for guys open it again.

[city02 63]

I'm not asking anyone to take any risks!

Good then we agree on that important point.

What I'm saying asking is simply this - IS DISCUSSING CLONNING ILLEGAL! Is it? I don't know how it can be.

There is a difference between illegal and unethical/immoral.

I doubt discussing it is illegal but it would certainly violate the terms of service of any operator and they would reserve the right to cancel your account if they found out your identity.

Why don't they simply offer this as a feature to users who need it?

There is obviously more to it than the most trivial interpretation.

I can understand doing it in GSM where you can buy the handsets independently but how will you clone in CDMA with a legally obtained mobile?

It's pretty darn ridiculous.

It may be but that does not mean it can't happen!

Since when did human beings start behaving in a totally rational manner?

All I'm asking is for the moderates of the forum to have a conviction in what they do and not be swayed by rumours and third party inferences.

That's actually funny!

We ALREADY have a 'conviction in' what we are doing!

Hence the decision to stop the discussion ...

If I add an extension cord to my landline at home to get a second line - is it illegal? How is clonning different from this?

Nope, because the second phone is not 'pretending' to have a different number.

On the other hand, a better analogy would be setting up another land line in another house that fools the switch into thinking that its your home phone. Ask your local phone company if they would object to that ...

At the end of the day, unauthorised exploiting of loopholes (which is what hacking usually is) does not justify the means.

There was an excellent show on Nat Geo a few nights ago called Hackers.

It interviewed many current and 'former' hackers who had been to court and even jail and back.

The most interesting comments were (this is from memory not verbatim):

'Just because you didn't lock your house or car does not give me the right to go in and start exploring around.

Even if you lock it, the lock might be easily picked and just because I did not steal or damage anything does not make it legal/moral or acceptable.

We did it because it was fun and exciting and we were good at it - not out any sense of protest/moral outrage/social-political injustice and to imply otherwise is simply fooling yourself into justifying unacceptable actions.'

Its amazing what a different perpective some court time can bring!

But people misuse kitchen knives to stab people as well... its no reason to ban kitchen knives!

This is a very old argument and is still just as wrong now as it was then.

The PRIMARY purpose of MS games is not to train hijackers.

The primary purpose of a KITCHEN knife is not to kill others.

The primary purpose of a car is NOT to run people over (yet it happens every hour).

The primary purpose of kerosine is not to set a daughter-in-law on fire (should we ban that also?).

What is the PRIMARY purpose of cloning?

Its to defeat the existing checks and balances to get additional services which were never authorised in the first place.

If you got the operator's permission to clone, it would be totally fine.

Just my thoughts on the matter ...

[Greens 21]

I believe my earlier post was removed, which was something to this effect, but too personal.

Anyways Checks and balances should always be there. I can quote enormous number of examples for this. Like brakes in automobile, like immune system in our body.

Mature minds put ethics and morality in first place, legality comes late for those of not the former.

[unwantedmails 0]

Just Remember Guys

IF WE DONT COMEUP WITH WORK-AROUNDS AND LOOP HOLES HOW WILL THEY BE COVERED. :-)

We may use it for bad or something wrong.. but opening it in an open forum will make sure that this problem is addressed.

I just came to know from a Very senior Law Inforcement official that they use something like Cloning to track criminals (exact details are Confidential and I am not 100% sure but what hints I got leads to this.). This simply means what we consider as BAD can be used for good purposes also. It simply depends who has the magic wand in his hands.

Secondly, I see NIMDA and BLASTER viruses which have caused such a havoc because the Information on Windows Vulnerability was know to only them and not opened publicly. If the info was open, MS would have fixed it much before.

Just my Theory.

Regards,

PCOGuy

[Greens 21]

Every Business and every individual has got loop holes. No system is 100% foolproof. So if we start to expose the loop holes in every system life will become miserable for everyone.

[unwantedmails 0]

And What if that loop hole falls into wrong hands. With everyone knowing the loop hole you are sure it will be fixed soon.

PCOGuy

[anujit 0]

Fair enough - City etc is right.

Therefore we should ban the following discussions and activities:

1. Bitpim and downloading/uploading ringtones & logos!

2. Field Code keys

3. AKEY codes etc etc

Arent they illegal/immoral as well. Because not only do they access "restricted/secured" portions of information they also violate music/pictures copyright laws!

Arun you should take them off ASAP!

[Code 0]

My 2 cents - umm.. paise

I think the issue is a mater of someone taking risk. I doubt any one running a forum/site on his server really can risk doing it and get into jail - who knows ??

What is more likely to be feasible is to have a unmoderated - free mailing list/e group(yahoo group etc) kinda thing and users of this forum may mail others offline who have the email ids public on this forum to join it (Not PMs etc). Since the group is hosted on a free server and is unmoderated - the risk of being tracked down is less (especially if one uses proxies to logon). Also they may not be so much after tracking down someone as far as no criminal kind of discussions occur. Downside is such a thing is likely to occur sooneer or later and then ... :S

[Greens 21]

traffic rules are necessary for road users, otherwise chaotic.

[Code 0]

Yes - I fully agree - but who will risk

[city02 63]

Therefore we should ban the following discussions and activities:

1. Bitpim and downloading/uploading ringtones & logos!

2. Field Code keys

3. AKEY codes etc etc

Arent they illegal/immoral as well. Because not only do they access "restricted/secured" portions of information they also violate music/pictures copyright laws!

No operator objects to users changing ringtones/logos.

If they violate copyright then you are correct - they should be removed.

Does not bother me at all since its absolutely the right thing to do!

Any other helpful/constructive suggestions?

We're all ears ...

[emmi 3]

[

Arent they illegal/immoral as well. Because not only do they access "restricted/secured" portions of information they also violate music/pictures copyright laws!

No operator objects to users changing ringtones/logos.

If they violate copyright then you are correct - they should be removed.

Does not bother me at all since its absolutely the right thing to do!

Any other helpful/constructive suggestions?

We're all ears ...

Well most of the ringtones in this forum are copyright prtected.The main reason r-world doesnt provide good ringtones is bcos of this.So r u guys will to remove all those ringtone files..

[Greens 21]

otherwise the copyright owner of the music will sue you.

[emmi 3]

otherwise the copyright owner of the music will sue you.

Who does you apply to here?????????

[Greens 21]

Pirates.

[Utsav 0]

The topic is yet to be started guys! You people have got some information and we don't have 'em. So you can do something that we can't. Is it fair? we must know the evil to get rid of it.

[emmi 3]

The topic is yet to be started guys! You people have got some information and we don't have 'em. So you can do something that we can't. Is it fair? we must know the evil to get rid of it.

What r u talking about .who r we and u here.

[Code 0]

I think he means:

u = older memebers who have viewed/?enjoyed the posts related to "THIS" topic.

we = new members who joined after these topics were removed.

[Chirag 5]

Sorry guys! Jus let this be held here for sometime. Keep ur cool, we'll defintely find someway in due course of time!